Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Guzrog

Guzrog

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K

Kyndread-Pantheon_sl

shitlord
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I'm still at work but want to go ahead and get this one out of the way. Being as the previous explanation of what happened wasn't sufficient I will give my take on it. I'd rather talk about other things to be honest, since I wasn't around and all the information I have is secondhand, but if it helps us move past it, then I'll give it a shot.

It was mentioned already that Brad took an advance on his salary of roughly 3 months or so. To me, taking an advance means he wouldn't pay himself again until those 3 months have passed, thus working itself out. The issue as I see it is that the money almost completely stopped coming in. Had that not occurred, the funds would have been replenished and there wouldn't have been an issue.

I believe Brad's account of what happened and I don't believe that he wouldn't have purposely sabotaged his own project for what really amounts to a relatively small amount of money. The money later on when/if the game becomes a success would be much better, so why risk killing the project early on? So those that say he is running a scam and trying to rip people off is not a logical argument for me. His explanation of taking an advance, is more logical and likely. Was it a smart thing to take an advance especially when the future was so uncertain? Probably not. Was it some sinister evil and illegal act trying to scam everyone for money? I don't think so.

If I am missing something please enlighten me, but this is how I feel about it. As far as to continue to receive funds for the game, what is wrong with that? The game is still being made and worked on. We are making steady progress. We are all pretty much working for free at the moment, but that isn't to say there aren't costs involved.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Kyndread-Pantheon_sl said:
I'm still at work but want to go ahead and get this one out of the way. Being as the previous explanation of what happened wasn't sufficient I will give my take on it. I'd rather talk about other things to be honest, since I wasn't around and all the information I have is secondhand, but if it helps us move past it, then I'll give it a shot.

It was mentioned already that Brad took an advance on his salary of roughly 3 months or so. To me, taking an advance means he wouldn't pay himself again until those 3 months have passed, thus working itself out. The issue as I see it is that the money almost completely stopped coming in. Had that not occurred, the funds would have been replenished and there wouldn't have been an issue.

I believe Brad's account of what happened and I don't believe that he wouldn't have purposely sabotaged his own project for what really amounts to a relatively small amount of money. The money later on when/if the game becomes a success would be much better, so why risk killing the project early on? So those that say he is running a scam and trying to rip people off is not a logical argument for me. His explanation of taking an advance, is more logical and likely. Was it a smart thing to take an advance especially when the future was so uncertain? Probably not. Was it some sinister evil and illegal act trying to scam everyone for money? I don't think so.

If I am missing something please enlighten me, but this is how I feel about it. As far as to continue to receive funds for the game, what is wrong with that? The game is still being made and worked on. We are making steady progress. We are all pretty much working for free at the moment, but that isn't to say there aren't costs involved.
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Then my question definitely remains. Why not become completely transparent, instead of deleting posts including his own admission? I am guessing you are going to say it would distract from the making of the game. Given Brad's previous track record, I am curious why you would think this will be different * This * time? In the off chance (.01% in my opinion) he isn't attempting to screw people over, you have no risk aside from your own time, with a hope you will see royalties?
 
Korrupt

Korrupt

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I can see how from your POV it would seem that his actions were innocent and not done in any malicious manner.

For me though being in the finance world it seems insane. Anytime even a thousand dollars changes hands you have clear contracts outlining the movements and use of said money. By saying that 45k is a small amount of money and that in the future it would be so much more makes no sense. Most business in the middle market range or even small business range that this would be in fail due to undercapitalization, which is why siphoning 45k while you are in the startup phase is insane.

It sounds like you are diminishing the act of theft or try to rationalize it by making those comments. Forecasting profits also implies you have a business plan (what real investors require) but there is no way you do if your project lead was able to embezzle 45k from the escrow or whatever type of account that money was held in.

Aside from the money I think most of us that are following or have followed the project are also looking for tangible proof real work has been done. From the comments from people experienced with unity here it sounds like what was put together was something someone with entry level experience could have done.
 
S

symbelmyne_sl

shitlord
70
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Krassus_sl said:
I can see how from your POV it would seem that his actions were innocent and not done in any malicious manner.

For me though being in the finance world it seems insane. Anytime even a thousand dollars changes hands you have clear contracts outlining the movements and use of said money. By saying that 45k is a small amount of money and that in the future it would be so much more makes no sense. Most business in the middle market range or even small business range that this would be in fail due to undercapitalization, which is why siphoning 45k while you are in the startup phase is insane.

It sounds like you are diminishing the act of theft or try to rationalize it by making those comments. Forecasting profits also implies you have a business plan (what real investors require) but there is no way you do if your project lead was able to embezzle 45k from the escrow or whatever type of account that money was held in.

Aside from the money I think most of us that are following or have followed the project are also looking for tangible proof real work has been done. From the comments from people experienced with unity here it sounds like what was put together was something someone with entry level experience could have done.
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Exactly - if the intent was malicious wouldn't you take it all? Brad screwed up thinking there would be more money coming in. He made an executive decision to siphon 3 months pay...justified cause lets face it, no Brad, no game. He must have been really desperate to get his hands on that money, cause i bet he would have given it back if he could have in light of what happened... he lost his entire team. people rightly feel betrayed...this project was supposed to happen. it was supposed to be funded. But I've got to ask, did Brad promise everyone they would be equal partners? Did Brad promise to equally share out the money? To say he stole money is a stretch. What he did ultimately had a huge negative effect on the team and on the project. he really fucked up. If the owner of your company told you he was taking 3 months pay early...what are your fucking options?

As far as the VG BS....i dont care what anyone thinks...46 million for Vanguard...the game turned out to be pretty good. If they had received the dollars Blizzard put into WoW for VG... we wouldnt be having this discussion today about Brad's previous failure. I'm sure you can agree with me on that? Krassus from Pain?
 
S

skrala

Silver Knight of the Realm
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symbelmyne_sl said:
As far as the VG BS....i dont care what anyone thinks...46 million for Vanguard...the game turned out to be pretty good. If they had received the dollars Blizzard put into WoW for VG... we wouldnt be having this discussion today about Brad's previous failure. I'm sure you can agree with me on that? Krassus from Pain?
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Wait what? I don't think you'll get anyone agreeing with that outside of the Brad kool-aid drinkers. The small amount of 'good' in that game was done in spite of him, from everything developers on the game have said both here and elsewhere.
 
C

Ceder_sl

shitlord
272
0
Kyndread-Pantheon_sl said:
I'm still at work but want to go ahead and get this one out of the way. Being as the previous explanation of what happened wasn't sufficient I will give my take on it. I'd rather talk about other things to be honest, since I wasn't around and all the information I have is secondhand, but if it helps us move past it, then I'll give it a shot.

It was mentioned already that Brad took an advance on his salary of roughly 3 months or so. To me, taking an advance means he wouldn't pay himself again until those 3 months have passed, thus working itself out. The issue as I see it is that the money almost completely stopped coming in. Had that not occurred, the funds would have been replenished and there wouldn't have been an issue.

I believe Brad's account of what happened and I don't believe that he wouldn't have purposely sabotaged his own project for what really amounts to a relatively small amount of money. The money later on when/if the game becomes a success would be much better, so why risk killing the project early on? So those that say he is running a scam and trying to rip people off is not a logical argument for me. His explanation of taking an advance, is more logical and likely. Was it a smart thing to take an advance especially when the future was so uncertain? Probably not. Was it some sinister evil and illegal act trying to scam everyone for money? I don't think so.

If I am missing something please enlighten me, but this is how I feel about it. As far as to continue to receive funds for the game, what is wrong with that? The game is still being made and worked on. We are making steady progress. We are all pretty much working for free at the moment, but that isn't to say there aren't costs involved.
Click to expand...
You've seen the documentation Kyn. The amount taken was closer to half of the donations at the time(and virtually still now). It is a clear misappropriation of the funds.

Coupled with the facts that the original team was paid extremely low amounts, not reimbursed at the time for asset purchases at the time of the "funds drying up" and more further supports the misappropriation. You even admit that the action of taking the money wasn't smart(that helps establish further you acknowledgement of his wrong doing, digging your hole even deeper).

Your statements here (and else where) regarding this, actions of yourself and the team to continue to encourage people to back the project knowing that has occurred, suppression of access to such information when made available through official venues and much much more constitute willful intent in perpetuating the misappropriation/fraud. Its criminally complacent.
 
K

Kyndread-Pantheon_sl

shitlord
112
0
Ceder_sl said:
Well let's get this out of the way, at least for humor's sake:

Matthew Davis (aka Kyndread of the Pantheon development team),

You have the right to remain silent when questioned.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.
If you decide to answer any questions now, without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. We have no way of giving you a lawyer, but one will be appointed for you, if you wish, if and when you go to court.

You can decide at any time from this moment on to terminate the questioning and exercise these rights.


Do you understand each of these rights I have explained to you?
Having these rights in mind, do you wish to talk to us now?
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Lol. What is this, some kind of citizen's arrest?
 
C

Ceder_sl

shitlord
272
0
symbelmyne_sl said:
Exactly - if the intent was malicious wouldn't you take it all?
Click to expand...
Misappropriation of funds occurs regardless of the amount. Most all cases of money taken in this manner are in various amounts. That's why one way of calling it is "skimming". Thus criminally it could've been 100 or 100k and it is still wrong. It'd be like taking $500 from a $2000 cash till and saying that because it was only 500 it wasnt malicious intent.
 
Korrupt

Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
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symbelmyne_sl said:
Krassus from Pain?
Click to expand...
Yes

Ceder_sl said:
Misappropriation of funds occurs regardless of the amount. Most all cases of money taken in this manner are in various amounts. That's why one way of calling it is "skimming". Thus criminally it could've been 100 or 100k and it is still wrong. It'd be like taking $500 from a $2000 cash till and saying that because it was only 500 it wasnt malicious intent.
Click to expand...
Any way you chop it up he was embezzling money.
 
S

symbelmyne_sl

shitlord
70
0
Krassus_sl said:
It sounds like you are diminishing the act of theft or try to rationalize it by making those comments. Forecasting profits also implies you have a business plan (what real investors require) but there is no way you do if your project lead was able to embezzle 45k from the escrow or whatever type of account that money was held in.

Aside from the money I think most of us that are following or have followed the project are also looking for tangible proof real work has been done. From the comments from people experienced with unity here it sounds like what was put together was something someone with entry level experience could have done.
Click to expand...
this is the part about it all I don't understand. they got 150k for doing almost nothing...and we got people bitching about fair pay. if we want to discuss pay by merit...how would you have distributed the kickstarter funds? from this point of view...not much was done but the website and the formation of the company...and as you put it...very entry level design. essentially a zone VU cobbled together in a day or less.
 
K

Kyndread-Pantheon_sl

shitlord
112
0
Ceder_sl said:
You've seen the documentation Kyn. The amount taken was closer to half of the donations at the time(and virtually still now). It is a clear misappropriation of the funds.

Coupled with the facts that the original team was paid extremely low amounts, not reimbursed at the time for asset purchases at the time of the "funds drying up" and more further supports the misappropriation. You even admit that the action of taking the money wasn't smart(that helps establish further you acknowledgement of his wrong doing, digging your hole even deeper).

You statements here (and else where) regarding this, actions of yourself and the team to continue to encourage people to back the project knowing that has occurred, suppression of access to such information when made available through official venues and much much more constitute willful intent in perpetuating the misappropriation/fraud. Its criminally complacent.
Click to expand...
Thanks Johnnie Cochran. Do you have anything else to talk about?
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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symbelmyne_sl said:
Exactly - if the intent was malicious wouldn't you take it all? Brad screwed up thinking there would be more money coming in. He made an executive decision to siphon 3 months pay...justified cause lets face it, no Brad, no game. He must have been really desperate to get his hands on that money, cause i bet he would have given it back if he could have in light of what happened... he lost his entire team. people rightly feel betrayed...this project was supposed to happen. it was supposed to be funded. But I've got to ask, did Brad promise everyone they would be equal partners? Did Brad promise to equally share out the money? To say he stole money is a stretch. What he did ultimately had a huge negative effect on the team and on the project. he really fucked up. If the owner of your company told you he was taking 3 months pay early...what are your fucking options?

As far as the VG BS....i dont care what anyone thinks...46 million for Vanguard...the game turned out to be pretty good. If they had received the dollars Blizzard put into WoW for VG... we wouldnt be having this discussion today about Brad's previous failure. I'm sure you can agree with me on that? Krassus from Pain?
Click to expand...
That project was so mismanaged it is ridiculous. And Vanguard was not a good game. At all. It had one good class with good music. It ran horribly, was horribly optimized, and your grass is greener approach here is ridiculous. And $46 million back in 2001-2006 is a hell of a lot of cash for a start up dev house who conned their way into Microsoft. If he had any more money, it would have been just as mismanaged as the other $46 Million. I still remember when he told everyone here dynamic pirate invasions were in the game. Right before he admitted himself to a clinic and the entire company was shuttered. Let's remember the type of management person we are dealing with here. Throwing more money at Vanguard at any stage would have been like throwing more money at Pathenonsnsn.
 
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