Well, then I would get those legal reasons resolved, or I wouldn't be working for free for him with the expectation I was going to be paid. Plenty of companies hire contractors, not sure what legal reasons he would be referring to outside of the obvious requirement to fulfill a contract - which your last sentence refers too.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
Chukzombi
Millie's Staff Member
- 71,746
- 213,061
thats insane dude, i would have gotten my pay either in cash, barter or testicles.
Furious
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 2,923
- 4,994
is there a way to unban salty just in this thread? This could turn it all around....He's just a paid user on their website. The reason I posted for him is because he is banned from here
I only agreed because I was not doing it for money. I wanted to do the video project to help support the community that I was a part of. The work I was doing deserves to be paid for and so does some of the work these other guys are doing. I understand that some of the new people were paid very low amounts, but compared to the 2k-3k that is coming in from monthly subs...
The bottom line is that I knew what I agreed to and I did it because I wanted to help my friends. When I found out how little involvement Brad had, I decided it wasn't worth my time.
I appreciate your willingness to answer questions, but by your own admission, you have no authority in Pantheon matters and Thus I'd like to hear from Kyndread. There is sarcasm in the questions, but I am looking for some honest responses from Kyndread who thus far, answered one one question, dodged a couple more, and gave a great non-answer to look something up on our own.
It's nice to see another opinion of a supporter. I want to know where these people's minds are at so this might provide insightful. You might be surprised to learn just how little the mods know about the inner workings of the project... Don't expect great information from Kyndread. The best questions will be the ones posed directly to his behavior and beliefs, you know, the one's he is dodging. I've remained in contact with some of my mod friends and the communication is no better than before. The information is not any more accessible than before.
Dude leaves a project and deletes his account because he's not being listened to and his feelings are hurt. Brad doesn't respond to his emails so he rage quits and deletes. Now that he's gotten some Brad cred, everything is great! Now communication is wonderful and Brad is on Skype ready to talk 24/7. Frenzic clearly is insane and just wants to hurt the project.
zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
- 18,903
- 73,785
No offense but you seem like a slice of the same apple pie to me. The only real chance this game had left after they didn't get paid much and finally figured out Brad is a fraud. Your ideas weren't liked enough, Brad didn't give you enough 'cred' and so you left the project. You are still fascinated with it, dying to be involved and hoping Brad will massage your balls ball once again so you can get back on board.
How else do you truly explain your original effort? Getting on board after the disasters that happened over and over with this guy? The lack of accountability, transparency, and actual work? His same old bullshit played out over and over? Are you piling on the poor ignoramus or just hoping his failures give you just another reason to make this the focus of your daily activities?
Maybe I didn't explain the situation well enough. The work that I did was very well liked. My comments are that no direction came from Brad and it was 100 % my creative working. I'm most certainly not dying to get involved. If that was the case I would have just continued with the video. I stopped I wasn't kicked.
I got on board for a few reasons. The first was because I met some really cool people and I wanted to help. The second was I wanted to see how things were really being run behind the scenes and what state brad was in.
Your last comment is confusing. Do I hope the project fails so I can laugh more? I get a great deal of entertainment from this, that much is obvious.
Dalien
Registered Hodor
- 2,181
- 2,020
I just went searching for the Vanguard postmortem on F13.net and they changed up all their links so I can't find it, but I managed to find ithere.
Reposting it here so it's not lost in the internets abyss:
TL;DR is: No matter how much money this project raises, the chances of some sort of playable game is almost nil with Brad McQuaid at the helm. $30 million budget for Vanguard and they had ONE QA tester. one. rofl.
Reposting it here so it's not lost in the internets abyss:
f13.net: How long, roughly speaking, did you work for Sigil?
Ex-Sigil: A Few.
f13.net: Were you there during the Microsoft years? Or at least, before the split.
Ex-Sigil: Yes.
f13.net: In terms of hands-on involvement, how much did Microsoft make their presence known?
Ex-Sigil: Initially they stayed fairly hands-off, but as things got further along they wanted to see results of their money.
f13.net: Can you elaborate on that a bit?
Ex-Sigil: We gave demos to high-level Microsoft people frequently. These demos were often just dog and pony shows where content was created specifically for the demo. There was no intention that this content ever be used in game. When you spend 30+ million on a project, you want to see results. They became more and more suspect as time went on, and more and more people got involved. Though, they were mostly just oversight. They never sent anyone down here to actually work on the project.
f13.net: Did they set the milestones?
Ex-Sigil: They set monthly milestones. They wanted a succesful MMOG. They had so many false starts with other things that they just wanted a profitable game.
f13.net: They weren?t trying to be the next WoW?
Ex-Sigil: Anyone who thinks you can make a WoW killer these days is foolish to try. You need to be your own game. WoW is a juggernaut and really needs to not be the watermark for success. WoW is a tough subject around Sigil too?
f13.net: Why?
Ex-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of ?look at what a good game can do!? when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.
f13.net: As WoW grew, did Microsoft expect more results from their new investment? Did the pressure get put on at any point?
Ex-Sigil: No.
f13.net: Then when did Microsoft grow suspicious that they weren?t going to get an actual product out of Sigil?
Ex-Sigil: When they started testing it themselves.
f13.net: Or rather, talk about how and when things started going downhill.
Ex-Sigil: Tt?s hard to say really, management never communicated stuff like that to us. Often times I feel like they told us more spin and nonsense then they told the public.
f13.net: So management kept everyone in the dark as much as possible?
Ex-Sigil: Completely.
f13.net: What was the rumor mill like at this time? Surely people had friends and spoke to eachother.
Ex-Sigil: Sure. People who had contacts at MS kept getting info that they were really unhappy with things, and at the same time, we had a set-in-stone release date of June/July? 2006. Or rather ? that was when Microsoft was going to cut of funding.
f13.net: How long before those summer days did rumors of leaving Microsoft start flying around?
Ex-Sigil: Management told us they were shopping things around and were entertaining outside investors to complete the project. But actually leaving Microsoft as a publisher was never discussed until they told us it was happening and we were co-publishing with SOE.
f13.net: At this time, how far along was the game itself?
Ex-Sigil: Well? if you call what we shipped 100%, I?d put the game at around 65%.
f13.net: What were the terms of the alliance with SOE at this time, if you knew?
Ex-Sigil: Co-publishing, with Sigil retaining all IP rights? is what we were told.
f13.net: What was SOE?s involvement from beginning the partnership up until E3 2006?
Ex-Sigil: No hands-on influence from SOE, only leveraging of SOE assets like testing.
f13.net: Let me backtrack a little bit, simply for background ? what was the hierarchy like within Sigil?
Ex-Sigil: There was input all around, but at each level, that input was simply discarded by the decision makers. Basically there were a handful of people who made decisions, regardless of input from anyone else.
f13.net: When it came down to actually making game content, how much freedom did designers have?
Ex-Sigil: Quite a bit. The content itself was done almost entirely on their own. The designers on Vanguard did amazing things with the horrific tools and systems in place.
f13.net: What tools were used to make the game?
Ex-Sigil: In-house stuff for the design side? but there was no scripting language for example, even though nearly everyone wanted one except for the people who decided if we got one or not.
f13.net: Because it would cost money to make these tools?
Ex-Sigil: No? because the people in charge just didn?t want one
f13.net: How much do you think the lack of reasonable tools hurt the project?
Ex-Sigil: Immeasurably. You can?t expect people to create interesting content, and then not give them the means to do it.
f13.net: Do you remember when the game was first shown publically? Surely it was while Microsoft was involved.
Ex-Sigil: I?m pretty sure the first time the game was seen in public, if I recall, was E3 2005. People were shown very small pieces (I was told a dungeon was shown over and over and over). Apparently, those pieces were specifically chosen to not show the glaring flaws. Now.. honestly, everyone does that. Nobody is going to parade around their problems. But the fact is, those problems were shoved under the carpet and ignored instead of being fixed before development moved forward.
f13.net: Was this a forced appearance?
Ex-Sigil: Yes.
f13.net: By Microsoft or Brad?
Ex-Sigil: Both I?d imagine? and that trend continued though for another year. What people don?t understand, is the game that went out the door was literally created in the last 15 months. Design worked 12-18 hour days for 9+ months. Coding and Art worked insane hours as well, all trying to actually get something playable out the door.
f13.net: How deep did SOE?s hands get into it? What was the progression like?
Ex-Sigil: They were hands-off all the way up til today
f13.net: ? are you serious?
Ex-Sigil: SOE lent a few devs to us in the final days, but it was nothing like people think. I think design had 3 people, art 2, and programming 1 from SOE. They let us use their testing dept too somewhat. We felt somewhat reborn I guess, but with a sense of reservation. When the merger happened SOE embraced us, and spent a LOT of money on us right away. It felt really good.
f13.net: Do you know why they were willing to do that? Surely they saw the lack of? product within the project at that time.
Ex-Sigil: I don?t know that they did really. They got the same show that MS did to some degree. I?ll say this about Brad.. he?s one hell of a salesman. He?s VERY passionate about his projects, even so much as to be blinded from seeing reality.
f13.net: SOE knew Brad?s game though. Smedley has been around through McQuaid Part 1 & 2 now.
Ex-Sigil: I know.. and I can?t explain that part.
f13.net: Surely people around the office knew part of the history. What was the rumor mill like at this time?
Ex-Sigil: Some people were confused. Why would SOE buy a game that?s a direct competitor to EQ2? There was always talk, but people who were working on the game continued to put their souls into it in hopes that we could somehow get it all together in the end.
f13.net: Without a scripting language or proper tools, it sounds like some of the people actually on the project were pretty amazing.
Ex-Sigil: The level of creativity to make things work where there were no methods to do so was incredible.
f13.net: What happened in the short time between E3 2006 and Beta?
Ex-Sigil: The dev staff knew the game wasn?t ready. Brad set the beta start I think and was completely clueless as to the actual state of the game? not listening to anyone telling him it wasn?t ready
f13.net: How hands off was he by this time?
Ex-Sigil: He was playing a lot right through about Beta 2 but then he vanished.
f13.net: As in, just outright disappeared?
Ex-Sigil: Yep.
f13.net: Why? He was still posting on forums during this time?
Ex-Sigil: Well, he showed up to make mandates about game systems and design decisions.
f13.net: Was he there to see that stuff get implemented?
Ex-Sigil: The management knows I?m sure, but I don?t have a clue. I just know he disappeared.
f13.net: What was the mood in the office by this time?
Ex-Sigil: People were still trying to stay upbeat, but certain people continually shooting down other?s ideas started to take its toll. At least 2 people quit the team due to the heavy handed inflexible people on the class design team. When something isn?t fun, except for the people who designed it, and others try to help, they?d get shot down? eventually people stop trying to help.
f13.net: How was QA treated through the course of development?
Ex-Sigil: QA?
f13.net: QA.
Ex-Sigil: QA was one person up until about November? ONE.
f13.net: What.
Ex-Sigil: 100% serious.
f13.net: What? How? This is an MMOG.
Ex-Sigil: Vanguard had one internal tester for probably 95% of the design cycle.
f13.net: Doesn?t the complete and utter failure, in hindsight, seem like a self-fulfilled prophecy though with only one QA member?
Ex-Sigil: The reasons for failure are too numerous to list, but can all be summed up by a lack of management. Brad, for all his faults at least made decisions. So did Jeff. Right or wrong, they took a shot. The people in charge now were so afraid to make the wrong decision that they made no decision at all.
f13.net: Surely members of the team that weren?t decision makers read forums and knew Sigil was doomed. Did people just blissfully ignore this stuff? I mean, comeon, the writing was on the wall.
Ex-Sigil: Oh, people knew. The only people that didn?t know seemed to be the people capable of making the decisions to change it.
f13.net: Who are these people who took over after Brad and Jeff disappeared. Who can we pin the tail on?
Ex-Sigil: Dave Gilbertson, Bill Fisher, and Darrin McPherson? Ryan Elam too, but he spread himself thin by trying to do too much.
f13.net: Can you talk about them a bit? As, for most people, those names mean nothing.
Ex-Sigil: Dave was the VP. Bill is now lead designer, and Darrin heads up the class team and is responsible for class balance.
f13.net: Going down the list, what was each persons contribution to the eventual? failure?
Ex-Sigil: Let?s just say they refused to listen to anyone on how to fix what was broken.
f13.net: Did they work as one unit, or are they each responsible in their own way for driving the project into the ground?
Ex-Sigil: Well, they were so pig-headed and arrogant that they believed we were all wrong and they were right.
f13.net: Did anyone have the experience out of those people to actually live in that sort of ivory tower?
Ex-Sigil: No. Dave was a modeler on the project and somehow became VP. Bill left SOE having shipped only Velious and some stuff in Luclin. Darrin left Westwood after Earth and Beyond tanked. Bill and Darrin worked together on this project through release ? they were also arrogant and refused to listen to anyone else. To be fair, I don?t think Dave did any of this intentionally, he was just in WAY over his head.
f13.net: Would you say, honestly, that they are directly responsible for the unfortunate conclusion?
Ex-Sigil: A part of it. You can?t leave out the insane hype machine, the process failures, and the poor design decision making at the very highest levels.
f13.net: I can?t speak for the hype machine outside of f13.net. But by this time, we knew the client broke the 20GB barrier and the game was, well, in a word ? terrible. So, what do you mean by hype machine? The official forums? The posi? was there any real positive press? I remember reading some, how did it even come about?
Ex-Sigil: Good salesmanship. Brad and Jeff are very passionate about things, and that passion can overwhelm people.
f13.net: But Jeff and Brad weren?t even on the scene at this time, were they?
Ex-Sigil: Jeff was to some degree. Brad was gone. Jeff was at least present and tried to be involved.
f13.net: Was it futile at this point? Had these other 3 guys pretty much taken everything over?
Ex-Sigil: Yeah.
f13.net: And what was the attitude by the team towards Brad and Jeff by now? Surely Brad?s disappearance absolutely wrecked morale.
Ex-Sigil: Not really. When he was at work he was more an obstacle than a help. A lot of people wanted brad to just go away.
f13.net: That conflicts with a lot of the stories I heard about people leaving companies to join Sigil because of Brad?
Ex-Sigil: People did? a lot of people.
f13.net: What do people think of Brad now? Let?s be real here, is he even fit to work in the industry?
Ex-Sigil: I think Brad?s situation is an odd one. He?s got tons of crazy ideas but he really shouldn?t be in charge of anything. He is great as a theorycrafter so long as he was tempered by people who could determine what was possible or not.
f13.net: How much did Microsoft sink into Vanguard?
Ex-Sigil: We always heard numbers like 30 million.
f13.net: And how much did SOE pay Microsoft for it?
Ex-Sigil: I doubt they paid much.
f13.net: Moving on ? Beta 2 to Release. How did that go?
Ex-Sigil: Things got a lot better.
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in?
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn?t control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
f13.net: At this point, why were you all getting decent press? Did Brad do most of the marketing for that (even though he wasn?t in the office)?
Ex-Sigil: Yes. We got press because I think people wanted to believe Brad. They wanted it to be great and they got caught up in his passion.
f13.net: How many copies of Vanguard sell between say, release and today?
Ex-Sigil: Around 200k, I think.
f13.net: How many people stayed after the ?free? month?
Ex-Sigil: Numbers I heard yesterday were 90k. But I can?t be sure. Actual subscription numbers were something management was very reluctant to tell us.
f13.net: Alright, I apologize for digging up a fresh corpse ? but when did you all get the feeling bad things were going to happen?
Ex-Sigil: Three weeks ago. We knew for 3 weeks that layoffs were likely, but nobody said what, when, or how many. So that cloud was over our heads for nearly a month.
f13.net: Can you go into detail about how the final month progressed? How did events unfold?
Ex-Sigil: We kept getting told that the deal was ?in the works? but there were no details to be had. This went on for 2 weeks. Then fairly quickly people started figuring out things were imminent. Then yesterday we were told to grab our things we?d need for the rest of the day and head outside for a company meeting.
f13.net: Was an email sent out, IM sent out, who told you to go outside?
Ex-Sigil: Email. The email said literally to check in any work we were working on, grab anything we?d need for the evening (keys, wallet, purse, whatever) and meet out back for a short company meeting.
f13.net: Who sent the email?
Ex-Sigil: Andy Platter. Director of Production, though nobody at the company knew if he did anything.
f13.net: Go on.
Ex-Sigil: We met in the parking lot. Worse still? though Dave was supposedly in charge all this time, Andy is the one who delivered the ?you?re all fired? speech, while Dave never said a single word.
f13.net: Who was standing at the front with Andy?
Ex-Sigil: Dave Gilbertson, Ryan Elam, and Donna Parkinson (the office manager).
f13.net: What was the speech you got?
Ex-Sigil: it was very emotionless. Very callous. ?The deal is done, and basically you?re all fired so some of you can be re-hired by SOE.? Bill was there and actually made comments about how he was likely buying a house thanks to his stock.
f13.net: Wait, what? Did non-stock holders get severance?
Ex-Sigil: There was severance, yes? and they did say they?d help out any way they could with our job search.
f13.net: What was the fallout like?
Ex-Sigil: Well, worst of all.. at the end of Sigil, Brad wasn?t even there to look us in the eye and apologize.
f13.net: Why do you think SOE kept him?
Ex-Sigil: His name? I heard he?s being paid a minor pittance to have his name associated with the game still? but he won?t actually be doing anything. I shouldn?t say pittance.. since he?s likely being paid more than many of the people who were let go. He got his initial investment back, I think, in the buyout and that?s about it. But that?s pretty much rumor. Only those involved know for real. For all I know, he could have made plenty. Or he could have not gotten a dime, but I seriously doubt that.
f13.net: Is there anything you want to add?
Ex-Sigil: It?s hard. I really wanted Vanguard to be a great game, but it seemed like we were blocked by stupid decision making at nearly every step. Good people busted their ass, only to be shown the door because they weren?t a ?culture fit? moving forward. I don?t believe Brad is a bad guy like some people are painting him on the various forums right now. I DO think however, that he believed people wanted to play a game that HE liked, regardless of the masses of people telling him they didn?t like his ideas. He ignored the opinions of people who worked for him, and busted their ass for him, and it cost him dearly, at least in reputation. So many of us jumped at the chance to work with Brad, only to find out he was a paper leader. You can only fool me once. I never want to work for Brad or Dave ever again. There was so much good in the team, so much effort wasted. None of the people listed above should ever work in any position of leadership. Though, Jeff might have a chance. He learned lessons from this, I think. The others did not. The whole ordeal has been rough. I know I?m exhausted.
f13.net: Thank you.
Ex-Sigil: A Few.
f13.net: Were you there during the Microsoft years? Or at least, before the split.
Ex-Sigil: Yes.
f13.net: In terms of hands-on involvement, how much did Microsoft make their presence known?
Ex-Sigil: Initially they stayed fairly hands-off, but as things got further along they wanted to see results of their money.
f13.net: Can you elaborate on that a bit?
Ex-Sigil: We gave demos to high-level Microsoft people frequently. These demos were often just dog and pony shows where content was created specifically for the demo. There was no intention that this content ever be used in game. When you spend 30+ million on a project, you want to see results. They became more and more suspect as time went on, and more and more people got involved. Though, they were mostly just oversight. They never sent anyone down here to actually work on the project.
f13.net: Did they set the milestones?
Ex-Sigil: They set monthly milestones. They wanted a succesful MMOG. They had so many false starts with other things that they just wanted a profitable game.
f13.net: They weren?t trying to be the next WoW?
Ex-Sigil: Anyone who thinks you can make a WoW killer these days is foolish to try. You need to be your own game. WoW is a juggernaut and really needs to not be the watermark for success. WoW is a tough subject around Sigil too?
f13.net: Why?
Ex-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of ?look at what a good game can do!? when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.
f13.net: As WoW grew, did Microsoft expect more results from their new investment? Did the pressure get put on at any point?
Ex-Sigil: No.
f13.net: Then when did Microsoft grow suspicious that they weren?t going to get an actual product out of Sigil?
Ex-Sigil: When they started testing it themselves.
f13.net: Or rather, talk about how and when things started going downhill.
Ex-Sigil: Tt?s hard to say really, management never communicated stuff like that to us. Often times I feel like they told us more spin and nonsense then they told the public.
f13.net: So management kept everyone in the dark as much as possible?
Ex-Sigil: Completely.
f13.net: What was the rumor mill like at this time? Surely people had friends and spoke to eachother.
Ex-Sigil: Sure. People who had contacts at MS kept getting info that they were really unhappy with things, and at the same time, we had a set-in-stone release date of June/July? 2006. Or rather ? that was when Microsoft was going to cut of funding.
f13.net: How long before those summer days did rumors of leaving Microsoft start flying around?
Ex-Sigil: Management told us they were shopping things around and were entertaining outside investors to complete the project. But actually leaving Microsoft as a publisher was never discussed until they told us it was happening and we were co-publishing with SOE.
f13.net: At this time, how far along was the game itself?
Ex-Sigil: Well? if you call what we shipped 100%, I?d put the game at around 65%.
f13.net: What were the terms of the alliance with SOE at this time, if you knew?
Ex-Sigil: Co-publishing, with Sigil retaining all IP rights? is what we were told.
f13.net: What was SOE?s involvement from beginning the partnership up until E3 2006?
Ex-Sigil: No hands-on influence from SOE, only leveraging of SOE assets like testing.
f13.net: Let me backtrack a little bit, simply for background ? what was the hierarchy like within Sigil?
Ex-Sigil: There was input all around, but at each level, that input was simply discarded by the decision makers. Basically there were a handful of people who made decisions, regardless of input from anyone else.
f13.net: When it came down to actually making game content, how much freedom did designers have?
Ex-Sigil: Quite a bit. The content itself was done almost entirely on their own. The designers on Vanguard did amazing things with the horrific tools and systems in place.
f13.net: What tools were used to make the game?
Ex-Sigil: In-house stuff for the design side? but there was no scripting language for example, even though nearly everyone wanted one except for the people who decided if we got one or not.
f13.net: Because it would cost money to make these tools?
Ex-Sigil: No? because the people in charge just didn?t want one
f13.net: How much do you think the lack of reasonable tools hurt the project?
Ex-Sigil: Immeasurably. You can?t expect people to create interesting content, and then not give them the means to do it.
f13.net: Do you remember when the game was first shown publically? Surely it was while Microsoft was involved.
Ex-Sigil: I?m pretty sure the first time the game was seen in public, if I recall, was E3 2005. People were shown very small pieces (I was told a dungeon was shown over and over and over). Apparently, those pieces were specifically chosen to not show the glaring flaws. Now.. honestly, everyone does that. Nobody is going to parade around their problems. But the fact is, those problems were shoved under the carpet and ignored instead of being fixed before development moved forward.
f13.net: Was this a forced appearance?
Ex-Sigil: Yes.
f13.net: By Microsoft or Brad?
Ex-Sigil: Both I?d imagine? and that trend continued though for another year. What people don?t understand, is the game that went out the door was literally created in the last 15 months. Design worked 12-18 hour days for 9+ months. Coding and Art worked insane hours as well, all trying to actually get something playable out the door.
f13.net: How deep did SOE?s hands get into it? What was the progression like?
Ex-Sigil: They were hands-off all the way up til today
f13.net: ? are you serious?
Ex-Sigil: SOE lent a few devs to us in the final days, but it was nothing like people think. I think design had 3 people, art 2, and programming 1 from SOE. They let us use their testing dept too somewhat. We felt somewhat reborn I guess, but with a sense of reservation. When the merger happened SOE embraced us, and spent a LOT of money on us right away. It felt really good.
f13.net: Do you know why they were willing to do that? Surely they saw the lack of? product within the project at that time.
Ex-Sigil: I don?t know that they did really. They got the same show that MS did to some degree. I?ll say this about Brad.. he?s one hell of a salesman. He?s VERY passionate about his projects, even so much as to be blinded from seeing reality.
f13.net: SOE knew Brad?s game though. Smedley has been around through McQuaid Part 1 & 2 now.
Ex-Sigil: I know.. and I can?t explain that part.
f13.net: Surely people around the office knew part of the history. What was the rumor mill like at this time?
Ex-Sigil: Some people were confused. Why would SOE buy a game that?s a direct competitor to EQ2? There was always talk, but people who were working on the game continued to put their souls into it in hopes that we could somehow get it all together in the end.
f13.net: Without a scripting language or proper tools, it sounds like some of the people actually on the project were pretty amazing.
Ex-Sigil: The level of creativity to make things work where there were no methods to do so was incredible.
f13.net: What happened in the short time between E3 2006 and Beta?
Ex-Sigil: The dev staff knew the game wasn?t ready. Brad set the beta start I think and was completely clueless as to the actual state of the game? not listening to anyone telling him it wasn?t ready
f13.net: How hands off was he by this time?
Ex-Sigil: He was playing a lot right through about Beta 2 but then he vanished.
f13.net: As in, just outright disappeared?
Ex-Sigil: Yep.
f13.net: Why? He was still posting on forums during this time?
Ex-Sigil: Well, he showed up to make mandates about game systems and design decisions.
f13.net: Was he there to see that stuff get implemented?
Ex-Sigil: The management knows I?m sure, but I don?t have a clue. I just know he disappeared.
f13.net: What was the mood in the office by this time?
Ex-Sigil: People were still trying to stay upbeat, but certain people continually shooting down other?s ideas started to take its toll. At least 2 people quit the team due to the heavy handed inflexible people on the class design team. When something isn?t fun, except for the people who designed it, and others try to help, they?d get shot down? eventually people stop trying to help.
f13.net: How was QA treated through the course of development?
Ex-Sigil: QA?
f13.net: QA.
Ex-Sigil: QA was one person up until about November? ONE.
f13.net: What.
Ex-Sigil: 100% serious.
f13.net: What? How? This is an MMOG.
Ex-Sigil: Vanguard had one internal tester for probably 95% of the design cycle.
f13.net: Doesn?t the complete and utter failure, in hindsight, seem like a self-fulfilled prophecy though with only one QA member?
Ex-Sigil: The reasons for failure are too numerous to list, but can all be summed up by a lack of management. Brad, for all his faults at least made decisions. So did Jeff. Right or wrong, they took a shot. The people in charge now were so afraid to make the wrong decision that they made no decision at all.
f13.net: Surely members of the team that weren?t decision makers read forums and knew Sigil was doomed. Did people just blissfully ignore this stuff? I mean, comeon, the writing was on the wall.
Ex-Sigil: Oh, people knew. The only people that didn?t know seemed to be the people capable of making the decisions to change it.
f13.net: Who are these people who took over after Brad and Jeff disappeared. Who can we pin the tail on?
Ex-Sigil: Dave Gilbertson, Bill Fisher, and Darrin McPherson? Ryan Elam too, but he spread himself thin by trying to do too much.
f13.net: Can you talk about them a bit? As, for most people, those names mean nothing.
Ex-Sigil: Dave was the VP. Bill is now lead designer, and Darrin heads up the class team and is responsible for class balance.
f13.net: Going down the list, what was each persons contribution to the eventual? failure?
Ex-Sigil: Let?s just say they refused to listen to anyone on how to fix what was broken.
f13.net: Did they work as one unit, or are they each responsible in their own way for driving the project into the ground?
Ex-Sigil: Well, they were so pig-headed and arrogant that they believed we were all wrong and they were right.
f13.net: Did anyone have the experience out of those people to actually live in that sort of ivory tower?
Ex-Sigil: No. Dave was a modeler on the project and somehow became VP. Bill left SOE having shipped only Velious and some stuff in Luclin. Darrin left Westwood after Earth and Beyond tanked. Bill and Darrin worked together on this project through release ? they were also arrogant and refused to listen to anyone else. To be fair, I don?t think Dave did any of this intentionally, he was just in WAY over his head.
f13.net: Would you say, honestly, that they are directly responsible for the unfortunate conclusion?
Ex-Sigil: A part of it. You can?t leave out the insane hype machine, the process failures, and the poor design decision making at the very highest levels.
f13.net: I can?t speak for the hype machine outside of f13.net. But by this time, we knew the client broke the 20GB barrier and the game was, well, in a word ? terrible. So, what do you mean by hype machine? The official forums? The posi? was there any real positive press? I remember reading some, how did it even come about?
Ex-Sigil: Good salesmanship. Brad and Jeff are very passionate about things, and that passion can overwhelm people.
f13.net: But Jeff and Brad weren?t even on the scene at this time, were they?
Ex-Sigil: Jeff was to some degree. Brad was gone. Jeff was at least present and tried to be involved.
f13.net: Was it futile at this point? Had these other 3 guys pretty much taken everything over?
Ex-Sigil: Yeah.
f13.net: And what was the attitude by the team towards Brad and Jeff by now? Surely Brad?s disappearance absolutely wrecked morale.
Ex-Sigil: Not really. When he was at work he was more an obstacle than a help. A lot of people wanted brad to just go away.
f13.net: That conflicts with a lot of the stories I heard about people leaving companies to join Sigil because of Brad?
Ex-Sigil: People did? a lot of people.
f13.net: What do people think of Brad now? Let?s be real here, is he even fit to work in the industry?
Ex-Sigil: I think Brad?s situation is an odd one. He?s got tons of crazy ideas but he really shouldn?t be in charge of anything. He is great as a theorycrafter so long as he was tempered by people who could determine what was possible or not.
f13.net: How much did Microsoft sink into Vanguard?
Ex-Sigil: We always heard numbers like 30 million.
f13.net: And how much did SOE pay Microsoft for it?
Ex-Sigil: I doubt they paid much.
f13.net: Moving on ? Beta 2 to Release. How did that go?
Ex-Sigil: Things got a lot better.
f13.net: Who set the release date?
Ex-Sigil: The release date was set as a result of SOE not wanting to fund the project any deeper without SOME revenue coming in?
f13.net: Surely no one thought this was ready for primetime. And what about the giant patches that appeared nearly daily?
Ex-Sigil: We couldn?t control that. From what I was told by some on the design team, the sweeping changes were par for the course.
f13.net: At this point, why were you all getting decent press? Did Brad do most of the marketing for that (even though he wasn?t in the office)?
Ex-Sigil: Yes. We got press because I think people wanted to believe Brad. They wanted it to be great and they got caught up in his passion.
f13.net: How many copies of Vanguard sell between say, release and today?
Ex-Sigil: Around 200k, I think.
f13.net: How many people stayed after the ?free? month?
Ex-Sigil: Numbers I heard yesterday were 90k. But I can?t be sure. Actual subscription numbers were something management was very reluctant to tell us.
f13.net: Alright, I apologize for digging up a fresh corpse ? but when did you all get the feeling bad things were going to happen?
Ex-Sigil: Three weeks ago. We knew for 3 weeks that layoffs were likely, but nobody said what, when, or how many. So that cloud was over our heads for nearly a month.
f13.net: Can you go into detail about how the final month progressed? How did events unfold?
Ex-Sigil: We kept getting told that the deal was ?in the works? but there were no details to be had. This went on for 2 weeks. Then fairly quickly people started figuring out things were imminent. Then yesterday we were told to grab our things we?d need for the rest of the day and head outside for a company meeting.
f13.net: Was an email sent out, IM sent out, who told you to go outside?
Ex-Sigil: Email. The email said literally to check in any work we were working on, grab anything we?d need for the evening (keys, wallet, purse, whatever) and meet out back for a short company meeting.
f13.net: Who sent the email?
Ex-Sigil: Andy Platter. Director of Production, though nobody at the company knew if he did anything.
f13.net: Go on.
Ex-Sigil: We met in the parking lot. Worse still? though Dave was supposedly in charge all this time, Andy is the one who delivered the ?you?re all fired? speech, while Dave never said a single word.
f13.net: Who was standing at the front with Andy?
Ex-Sigil: Dave Gilbertson, Ryan Elam, and Donna Parkinson (the office manager).
f13.net: What was the speech you got?
Ex-Sigil: it was very emotionless. Very callous. ?The deal is done, and basically you?re all fired so some of you can be re-hired by SOE.? Bill was there and actually made comments about how he was likely buying a house thanks to his stock.
f13.net: Wait, what? Did non-stock holders get severance?
Ex-Sigil: There was severance, yes? and they did say they?d help out any way they could with our job search.
f13.net: What was the fallout like?
Ex-Sigil: Well, worst of all.. at the end of Sigil, Brad wasn?t even there to look us in the eye and apologize.
f13.net: Why do you think SOE kept him?
Ex-Sigil: His name? I heard he?s being paid a minor pittance to have his name associated with the game still? but he won?t actually be doing anything. I shouldn?t say pittance.. since he?s likely being paid more than many of the people who were let go. He got his initial investment back, I think, in the buyout and that?s about it. But that?s pretty much rumor. Only those involved know for real. For all I know, he could have made plenty. Or he could have not gotten a dime, but I seriously doubt that.
f13.net: Is there anything you want to add?
Ex-Sigil: It?s hard. I really wanted Vanguard to be a great game, but it seemed like we were blocked by stupid decision making at nearly every step. Good people busted their ass, only to be shown the door because they weren?t a ?culture fit? moving forward. I don?t believe Brad is a bad guy like some people are painting him on the various forums right now. I DO think however, that he believed people wanted to play a game that HE liked, regardless of the masses of people telling him they didn?t like his ideas. He ignored the opinions of people who worked for him, and busted their ass for him, and it cost him dearly, at least in reputation. So many of us jumped at the chance to work with Brad, only to find out he was a paper leader. You can only fool me once. I never want to work for Brad or Dave ever again. There was so much good in the team, so much effort wasted. None of the people listed above should ever work in any position of leadership. Though, Jeff might have a chance. He learned lessons from this, I think. The others did not. The whole ordeal has been rough. I know I?m exhausted.
f13.net: Thank you.
TL;DR is: No matter how much money this project raises, the chances of some sort of playable game is almost nil with Brad McQuaid at the helm. $30 million budget for Vanguard and they had ONE QA tester. one. rofl.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I kind of want to know the answer to this too. Mainly, what exactly is the drive at this point? Is is simply due to the name 'Brad McQuaid'? Why do you continue to support this man when there are people who directly worked with him (the ex devs here and even ones on Vanguard) that can tell you horror stories of these projects he's been involved in? Why do you continue to believe in something that happened 15 years ago when the last two recent projects he's been involved in not only have failed, but have burned to the ground? Especially since numerous people who worked directly with him say he was ultimately the reason for it.
Tauro
Bronze Knight of the Realm
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- 26
And also:
What is Brads role right now? "Managing" the team(whatever that means), looking for investors & a real CEO? He wants to be the CCO and be "hands off", just delivering ideas & concepts? Who in their right mind would invest big money in this project? Who in their right mind & with the appropriate skills would apply for CEO with no funds available, no investors on the horizon and some part timy hobby developers working on the project for free?
What is Brads role right now? "Managing" the team(whatever that means), looking for investors & a real CEO? He wants to be the CCO and be "hands off", just delivering ideas & concepts? Who in their right mind would invest big money in this project? Who in their right mind & with the appropriate skills would apply for CEO with no funds available, no investors on the horizon and some part timy hobby developers working on the project for free?
Tauro
Bronze Knight of the Realm
- 371
- 26
Another question not directly related to Pantheon, but probably shedding some light on Brads work ethics... what did he do the last time he worked at SOE?
He was a member of the Vanguard dev team, made some forum posts and then vanished again for months. The he resurfaced with the EQ1 dev team, made some forum posts and vanished for months. Then he was let go from SOE... What did he do in those long months he worked for SOE, what content did he help to develop? Why did he hop from the Vanguard dev team to the EQ1 dev team? Did he do any meaningful work at all?
Edit: I cant remember those events too well, if i am wrong, just tell me!
He was a member of the Vanguard dev team, made some forum posts and then vanished again for months. The he resurfaced with the EQ1 dev team, made some forum posts and vanished for months. Then he was let go from SOE... What did he do in those long months he worked for SOE, what content did he help to develop? Why did he hop from the Vanguard dev team to the EQ1 dev team? Did he do any meaningful work at all?
Edit: I cant remember those events too well, if i am wrong, just tell me!
Jimbolini
Semi-pro Monopoly player
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Kyndread,
1. Thanks for posting here. Good or bad, you have more balls than most for answering questions on this forum.
2. What are the expectations of "the team"? Assuming Brad finds a CEO that will work on no salary, are they hoping to still find an investor?
1. Thanks for posting here. Good or bad, you have more balls than most for answering questions on this forum.
2. What are the expectations of "the team"? Assuming Brad finds a CEO that will work on no salary, are they hoping to still find an investor?
1. Brad was the only one
2. Still trying to figure that out and have never had a solid answer - I'm assuming since there was never a stink from the original developers more than stating, I wasn't paid enough on KTAM radio, I doubt there were written contracts (that at least weren't fulfilled), or it would/should have gone further. Still doesn't make the situation right, but it shows the naivety on all parties involved if it's true.
3. Supposedly a VRI paypal account, it does have Brad's pantheon ROTF site e-mail address attached to it, but that's not a deal breaker in stating that it's a personal account. He also addressed it on the website stating that it was not a personal account. I doubt his first personal paypal account was started with this website - I'd say it's again more of an oversight of having a more general e-mail attached to it such as accountspayable_pantheonrotf.com.
A side note though since he was/is the only employee of VRI, I doubt there is much difference in stating a business versus personal account - I'm not sure who as a contractor had access to that account.
I've asked that question on the boards and I've received a response from Brad directly.
The expectations are that an investor is still being sought after, by creating a more polished product with the volunteer team (and by creating more content to show investors), and if funding were to come in, I was informed the volunteer team would still be retained for continuity on the project.
See a few other of my responses, Brad has claimed that the current team isn't expendable if funding is obtained; however, I would imagine there would be some breaking point if the project was offered X million dollars to continue with a new development team.