Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

BilboFaggins

BilboFaggins

N00b
302
22
Merlin_sl said:
Not to mention I have to disagree. Gear is great and fun to upgrade, but in early Everquest, people chased levels. Period. Hell I remember when people dinged 50 they would get server wide tells congratulating them. Players raid for gear, but the ultimate carrot is levels. At least it was before developers decided to making leveling so easy you can now level characters 80 levels in a week.
Click to expand...
You know for me, it's gotten to the point where I just like seeing any progression. In EQ (yes I still play EQ after 14 years lol), I like to see the progression of AAs. Really, as long as there is some sort of progression (progress bar) moving that I can see, I am happy.

What I would like to see is more progressions to track. Levels should take a long time, but let me see other progressions moving faster to entertain me while I am playing each night. Let's see a "race slayer progression" moving as I am killing a particular race of mob like goblin. As I am adventuring deeper and deeper in a dungeon and killing mobs, let me see a "dungeon progression" bar moving that increases my knowledge of that dungeon or something.

Carrots are good. I like carrots on a stick. lol
 
T

TragedyAnn_sl

shitlord
222
1
Aradune_sl said:
No.

There will be fewer quests. Quality over quantity. Think vanilla EQ not VG where you go from quest hub to quest hub. Probably won't be quest hubs. The fewer quests will be long involved and fun. They should yield a great reward. But you don't have to do them to advance your character.
Click to expand...
I like this idea. Right now, I pretty much just play eq2. The "Drinal" quest has become a favorite of mine. I've done it on several characters and am currently in the middle of it on another one of my alts. No, it's not perfect but it's looooooong and I always have something to do when I log in. I don't have tons of time to play, but this quest keeps me logging in b/c I have something to do. Every night, I can complete a few more steps.
The worst thing in the (mmo) world is logging in and sitting there, trying to figure out what to do, not finding anything to do, logging out.
"Quality over quantity" and bringing the fun back to questing...sounds great to me!
 
T

TragedyAnn_sl

shitlord
222
1
Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
What I would like to see is more progressions to track. Levels should take a long time, but let me see other progressions moving faster to entertain me while I am playing each night. Let's see a "race slayer progression" moving as I am killing a particular race of mob like goblin. As I am adventuring deeper and deeper in a dungeon and killing mobs, let me see a "dungeon progression" bar moving that increases my knowledge of that dungeon or something.
Click to expand...
I kinda was thinking that about skill. Skill should matter. Not exactly sure what to do with that... but if I've slain 5500 mobs, I should somehow have more killin' skill than person-who-got-power-leveled-and-has-yet-to-swing-a-weapon-or-cast-a-spell. But like I said, not exactly sure how or what a dev would do with that...
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
TragedyAnn_sl said:
I kinda was thinking that about skill. Skill should matter. Not exactly sure what to do with that... but if I've slain 5500 mobs, I should somehow have more killin' skill than person-who-got-power-leveled-and-has-yet-to-swing-a-weapon-or-cast-a-spell. But like I said, not exactly sure how or what a dev would do with that...
Click to expand...
I felt like that in regards to EQN and possible class design but within a skill based game.. For instance, if you were a monk you would get the FD skill and be able to use it. It just wouldn't be as effective as someone who has had it, used it a ton and also wears the proper gear to enhance it.
 
rhinohelix

rhinohelix

Dental Dammer
<Gold Donor>
2,920
4,740
TragedyAnn_sl said:
I kinda was thinking that about skill. Skill should matter. Not exactly sure what to do with that... but if I've slain 5500 mobs, I should somehow have more killin' skill than person-who-got-power-leveled-and-has-yet-to-swing-a-weapon-or-cast-a-spell. But like I said, not exactly sure how or what a dev would do with that...
Click to expand...
LOTRO had/has something like this where you gain a small bonus to dmg, etc. after killing so many of certain mob. Really more like an achievement than anything else.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Rhinohelix_sl said:
LOTRO had/has something like this where you gain a small bonus to dmg, etc. after killing so many of certain mob. Really more like an achievement than anything else.
Click to expand...
It was a good feature, and actually solved Kruegen's "I Hate AA" problem. IIRC, it was basically a sort of AA system - except you didn't buy it, kill 200 spiders and you'd get the +%damage to spider achievement. Then you could slot the achievements - so you didn't get AA bloat. I think at most you could have 20 of these kind of achievements slotted at one time (you got more slots as you leveled) - so it lead to theorycrafting over what was the best to slot. A real LOTRO person can probably find ten things wrong with my five line description but whatever.

This system is probably the one thing that's worth stealing from LOTRO.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
tad10_sl said:
It was a good feature, and actually solved Kruegen's "I Hate AA" problem. IIRC, it was basically a sort of AA system - except you didn't buy it, kill 200 spiders and you'd get the +%damage to spider achievement. Then you could slot the achievements - so you didn't get AA bloat. I think at most you could have 20 of these kind of achievements slotted at one time (you got more slots as you leveled) - so it lead to theorycrafting over what was the best to slot. A real LOTRO person can probably find ten things wrong with my five line description but whatever.

This system is probably the one thing that's worth stealing from LOTRO.
Click to expand...
Aw c'mon man, you know you loved that LOTRO ability lock.
 
Furious

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,931
4,992
Kreugen_sl said:
AA is simply a mistake that should never happen again. Right along with things like six versions of the same raid and shared XP loss.
Click to expand...
I like the idea that at max level your exp can go to another bar in the form of an aa. All I would do is make an aa like a Discipline. Make them expendable on not game breaking buffs.
 
Caliane

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
14,679
10,242
tad10_sl said:
It was a good feature, and actually solved Kruegen's "I Hate AA" problem. IIRC, it was basically a sort of AA system - except you didn't buy it, kill 200 spiders and you'd get the +%damage to spider achievement. Then you could slot the achievements - so you didn't get AA bloat. I think at most you could have 20 of these kind of achievements slotted at one time (you got more slots as you leveled) - so it lead to theorycrafting over what was the best to slot. A real LOTRO person can probably find ten things wrong with my five line description but whatever.

This system is probably the one thing that's worth stealing from LOTRO.
Click to expand...
not stealing Lotro's music system...

Crafting was a good base too iirc. Highly interdependent on other professions to make anything.
 
Tolan

Tolan

Member of the Year 2016
<Banned>
7,249
2,038
Merlin_sl said:
...in early Everquest, people chased levels. Period. Hell I remember when people dinged 50 they would get server wide tells congratulating them. Players raid for gear, but the ultimate carrot is levels...
Click to expand...
There were plenty of sought-after items outside of raiding. In chronological order of very morable items along my way to 60 in RoK: Shiny brass shield, Dwarven Ringmail Tunic, first full chain mail set, polished granite tomahawk, forest loop, a full set of ivy etched, the arms from Varathyx in the FM cycle, trueshot longbow, raincaller, Quilmaine's cloak, fbss, ssoy, treeweave, swarmcaller, lupine dagger, hangman's noose, Tolan's armor set. These are just a few on a long list of items that kept me interested in playing EQ, not to mention unlocking tiers of massively upgraded spells every 5 or 10 levels. I didn't do quests, item camps, adventuring and EC trading only when I needed a break from leveling. Leveling was a means to acquire the items, spells, and access that I desired.
 
BilboFaggins

BilboFaggins

N00b
302
22
Tolan_sl said:
There were plenty of sought-after items outside of raiding. In chronological order of very morable items along my way to 60 in RoK: Shiny brass shield, Dwarven Ringmail Tunic, first full chain mail set, polished granite tomahawk, forest loop, a full set of ivy etched, the arms from Varathyx in the FM cycle, trueshot longbow, raincaller, Quilmaine's cloak, fbss, ssoy, treeweave, swarmcaller, lupine dagger, hangman's noose, Tolan's armor set. These are just a few on a long list of items that kept me interested in playing EQ, not to mention unlocking tiers of massively upgraded spells every 5 or 10 levels. I didn't do quests, item camps, adventuring and EC trading only when I needed a break from leveling. Leveling was a means to acquire the items, spells, and access that I desired.
Click to expand...
There is a reason that items like the FBSS and SSOY were uber popular and sought after in Everquest, and the reason is that good equipment was rare. Every MMO that has come out after EQ has made equipment drop like candy from a pinyata.

I remember the first time I played WoW, I got a cool sword in this low level dungeon, and I was stoked. The next day, I got another one that replaced it. Then another a couple hours later. It didn't take long before the fun of seeking out equipment was gone almost completely. Instead of the joy of seeking out equipment, it was replaced with upgrading equipment, and that was never even close to as fun as seeking out good equipment in EQ.

I'm not a game designer, so I don't know how you go about making it work over the long term. But, it just seems to me that we need to get away from the mudflation of stat growth on equipment, and keep stats low and important. Ten years in to a MMORPG, you shouldn't have equipment with 500 HP/Mana/End and 20 other stats on the equipment. It should still be something like a couple stats at 10 to 20 points. There should be a valid reason to upgrade that chestpiece you have been wearing for the past couple years and modifying via crafting.

In fact, I'll throw out this idea. What about if you never picked up a piece of "equipment" ever, but instead you bought or had that equipment created by a crafter because it has to be specifically fitted to your character. This initial equipment would have slots for appearance, stats, particle effects, etc. That equipment, you likely will keep for the life of your character. Then when you are adventuring, you kill boss mobs that drop rare materials that you use to modify your equipment rather than replace it.
 
S

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,890
1,900
tad10_sl said:
It was a good feature, and actually solved Kruegen's "I Hate AA" problem. IIRC, it was basically a sort of AA system - except you didn't buy it, kill 200 spiders and you'd get the +%damage to spider achievement. Then you could slot the achievements - so you didn't get AA bloat. I think at most you could have 20 of these kind of achievements slotted at one time (you got more slots as you leveled) - so it lead to theorycrafting over what was the best to slot. A real LOTRO person can probably find ten things wrong with my five line description but whatever.

This system is probably the one thing that's worth stealing from LOTRO.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I am not sure if that sort of 'pidgeonholed' system would fit in a hardcore MMO.

You'd run into the issue of people min-maxing the achievements for the best combination instead of being forced to use specific ones that are available to you. Generally speaking, one of the fundamentals that made EQ, well, EQ, is the lack of classes having the ability to do something another class could do - unless it's a general mechanic and the class is a hybrid.

These types of system, to me, are 'gimmicks', like Public Quests that Warhammer pretty much invented - They're shit rehashed in MMOs to add a psuedo-level of depth mechanically instead of actual immersion. They're achievement points you add to your 'gamer/gear score', not a new piece of gear you equip. Totally different mentality in terms of playstyle and does not belong in a hardcore MMO. That being said, there's variations that CAN exist in harmony..

..Such as finding a piece of weaponry that does damage harder to spiders would be a fine mechanic. Or a piece of gear that gives a resistance to poison when hit by a spider. These are direct increases and not general increases and are what makes hardcore MMOs work mechanically.

..Or having a city invaded by a band of Orcs, and you have to fend off the orcs otherwise the city is overrun and you'll either help or hinder the city to rebuild it.. which won't be in public quests, mind you, they'll be more open-ended than them, like involving perma-spawn points for Orcs that when one is cleared, a normal city guard will spawn nearby after ~10 mins.

Not enough people playing in your area? Tough shit, go get the community to come help you if you can't do it alone. Otherwise, move on to the next town.

These are types of concepts that need to be in a hardcore MMO. They force you to work together and build friendships and reward you for doing them. Not by a vendor with a planar crystal, not by a magical valor vendor, but instead by playing the fucking game and looting that guy you killed.
 
zzeris

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
19,086
75,683
Secrets_sl said:
You'd run into the issue of people min-maxing the achievements for the best combination instead of being forced to use specific ones that are available to you. Generally speaking, one of the fundamentals that made EQ, well, EQ, is the lack of classes having the ability to do something another class could do - unless it's a general mechanic and the class is a hybrid.

These types of system, to me, are 'gimmicks', like Public Quests that Warhammer pretty much invented - They're shit rehashed in MMOs to add a psuedo-level of depth mechanically instead of actual immersion. They're achievement points you add to your 'gamer/gear score', not a new piece of gear you equip. Totally different mentality in terms of playstyle and does not belong in a hardcore MMO. That being said, there's variations that CAN exist in harmony..

..Such as finding a piece of weaponry that does damage harder to spiders would be a fine mechanic. Or a piece of gear that gives a resistance to poison when hit by a spider. These are direct increases and not general increases and are what makes hardcore MMOs work mechanically.

..Or having a city invaded by a band of Orcs, and you have to fend off the orcs otherwise the city is overrun and you'll either help or hinder the city to rebuild it.. which won't be in public quests, mind you, they'll be more open-ended than them, like involving perma-spawn points for Orcs that when one is cleared, a normal city guard will spawn nearby after ~10 mins.

Not enough people playing in your area? Tough shit, go get the community to come help you if you can't do it alone. Otherwise, move on to the next town.

These are types of concepts that need to be in a hardcore MMO. They force you to work together and build friendships and reward you for doing them. Not by a vendor with a planar crystal, not by a magical valor vendor, but instead by playing the fucking game and looting that guy you killed.
Click to expand...
The LOTRO system could give very minor improvements that aren't worth the trouble to min/max. I prefer that system to just finding a piece of loot that is Spider's bane. Your examples make the game even more loot based which causes it's own problems in environments. While I do want some weapons with these abilities, I want them to be rare. I'd like to believe that killing a ton of spiders would make you understand them a bit more and add a very small boost to your abilities. I also think this should involve some effort and time applied to accomplish. I really hate to see everyone with Spider's bane abilities, etc because the bar was set way too low to give everyone a prize. Total bullshit.

PQs were invented by WHO but they haven't really been upgraded since then. The issue has always been, 'How do we get players involved in the great group content we've created.' The system was primitive and has always held hands way too much. But there can be PQ type options that work and probably should be. How much content in EQ was never even used by the players base? I read somewhere that quite a lot of quests were never solved. What is the purpose of making content, or cool events if your player base doesn't use them? It's a waste of developer resources. An example could be a small orc fort where a certain series of events happen for anyone who kill a certain number of orcs. This is not solo-able content and would be difficult 6 man content. The reward is a map and a 'key'. The map shows a hidden dungeon or entrance to the main orc cave fortress(raid level). The key is the only way into this dungeon. It's a nice bonus and encourages seeking new content over the hamster wheel of leveling and item searches.

I do like your city scenario a lot and hope someone can find ways to implement such content. I was hoping EQN would but I know they will have a lot of handholding. I also hate vendor shit. It really destroys immersion, holds hands way too much, hurts the game's overall health, and encourages the type of game play I despise.
 
Muligan

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,216
898
Just a question to admin/mods... would it be worthwhile to possibly have some of the more prevalent or repeated points listed in the initial post? I'm not saying Brad's going to take anything we say into any major consideration but if agreeable points are made would be nice to see them in one place for Brad or whoever to see the pulse of the community. I've seen several points that many of us agree.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
These scripted zone changes you describe similar to WHO or more recently GW2 would be a nice touch *if* they arent overdone. GW2 failed there by having everything repeat after an hour or so and thus losing any consequence. EQ did that better too through the coldain ring war finale, where failing it ruined Thurgadin for several days. I wouldnt mind a few such events or quests culminating in them, but not to the extend GW2 did it. Zone changing events should actually change the zone for a time frame that makes players take notice of it instead of going "meh it'll be back to normal in 2 hours". I'm thinking fail to defend the wizard tower from the orcs and it stays unoccupied for 3 days and you cant buy you reagent/spells there or talk to the old wizard to advance your dragonsbane quest.
 
Laura

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
Question:
About the subtitle "Rise of the Fallen"... Are they rising now because they've just fallen? Sounds like a 5 seconds YouTube video
tongue.png
(just kidding...)
 
Dyvim

Dyvim

Bronze Knight of the Realm
1,420
195
The downside of the classic AAs and Lotros achievement spider band system was it didnt show of.
Why did we fun hunting down gear like yaks and smr because everyone could see your big epeen not because your eboots had ridiculous +9wis int but you showed you bested the bad efreeti mofo.
That why i think tangling AAs to levels would also help because everyone would easiliy see, wow this shiny guy is allready lvl xx so he has allready bolstered xx*10 AAs and distinguished his char even further from little jimmy bullocks, one day i will be like him, fuck one day i will beat him in the best of the best tournament.
That what you strife to achieve in an upcoming hardcore game.
 
arallu

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
536
47
That's one thing I miss from MMORPG's, the ability to take one look at someone and go "omg that gear" and on the flipside go "wow you've been out of the game a while", both of which happened to me on different occasions. With dye's, appearance slots, etc. you dont get to see a visual representation of where that guy/gal has been and what they've accomplished. Only rarely in VG did I ask someone about gear, and that was usually only due to a flashy weapon. In EQ you could tell those SSoY's and Rubicite armor from half a courtyard away, or when I came back after a hiatus, some guy looking at me in Ivy etched gear and going "your rocking some old school stuff".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.