Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Ambiturner said:

Because even a lot of things that people think of as "right", were still done terribly.
Take your idea of getting to level cap slower, for example. If there's so many things to do that out doesn't drag, then that's a great thing. If you have to sit in a room and grind the same 10 mobs every 20 minutes for 30 hours then that's just awful.
Same thing with not feeling like you're the only group that exists as a complaint against instanced dungeons. It falls apart when you have hour(s) long lists just to get the privilege to actually play the game.
A lot of what WoW did differently than EQ was for a reason, but a lot blinded by nostalgia refuse to see it

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Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating that EQ did not have a lot of flaws - many of which Vanilla resolved initially, but has gotten further and further away from each expansion since. There was a definite wow factor the first time you stepped into so many of the dungeons in EQ, part of that was the unknown which we sadly will never see again, but the other part was that you often had to spend days or weeks fully exploring it due to pace, scope, competition and them often catering to a broad range of levels. Vanilla did capture some of that with BRD / Maraudin, but after vanilla, blizzard started reserving all the sprawling 'cool' dungeons for raids and basically treated leveling content as something to blow through in a day or two, essentially taking the stance 'that the game starts at max level'.

As to instancing, there are better ways to deal with population control than to isolate everybody into their own pocket universe. EQ did a remarkably poor job of balancing the loot vs the difficulty to obtain that loot, as well as making a mess of the ZEM modifiers. If you have two or three areas that all have comparable loot with comparable risk, people wont queue up for 3 hours to farm a FBSS, they will just go to another zone. So many of the dungeons and zones in EQ were fundamentally broken that people naturally just migrated to the ones where you rarely pulled the whole zone through the floor/ceiling but still got good loot. Likewise, make the ZEM dynamic -- too many people in the same zone for the mob population to support, xp reward for zone goes down there and up in another.

TL;DR - EQ wasn't perfect but anti-social dungeons and 'the game starts at 60' mentality isn't right for everyone either

You're right man. The EQ playerbase was famous for being social butterflies.

Raign said:

Vanilla did capture some of that with BRD / Maraudin, but after vanilla, blizzard started reserving all the sprawling 'cool' dungeons for raids and basically treated leveling content as something to blow through in a day or two, essentially taking the stance 'that the game starts at max level'.

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I agree. I think a lot of that also has to do w/ statistics too, though. I mean, we all know Blizzard shifted the paradigm to a more accessible (casual) audience, and that's one reason EQ failed to captivate more. The heat maps that show player foot traffic are pretty cool. Bliz has hooks into everything that players do. Take the aforementioned BRD as an example. Most definitely the closest thing in WoW to an EQ dungeon, albeit still a long ways away. But if we're all being honest, how many times did we all hang out on the right side of the map? Maybe a few runs tops? A lot of their decisions were likely driven by human traffic w/ in the dungeon and if they're seeing 95% of the playerbase b-line it straight through jail to emperor they've got to look at dev time spent vs. player time spent in said areas. Not only that, w/ an average group (more common than not in '04), BRD was an absolute slog if you wanted to do everything. With respect to EQ itself - I started in 99' but still did the golden path; EC orcs, Oasis, Guk, Cazic Thule, etc.. There were so many zones and dungeons I literally have never stepped foot into. Runneye, Beholder's Maze, Splitpaw, Kith, Befallen, Paineel (until Epic). Those are just dungeons, I didn't even list any of the outdoor zones I've never seen. I can't say the same for WoW, simply because many zones were relevant, but more importantly, accessible. In truth I love EQ's "world" more, but my time vs what was more efficient and what others are doing beats the fun of going to explore Clan Runneye some night because I've never been there.

Admit it you miss the nutsos and their failure to yield

daly said:

Usually those same vajayjays are the ones choking on WoW's nuts. Brad also slept with their mom and never called her afterwards, so the hatred goes past video games.

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Nah. There's not really salty people regarding EQ, there's people clearly misrepresenting EQ's "greatness" and then a shitload of people who played the shit out of it and a bunch of other games after it fell to the wayside. EQ was great between 1999 and 2002 (Luclin sucked donkey dong) and it lead to a lot of memorable situations as well as a knowledge of what "hardcore" is to some. But make no mistake, if WoW had released alongside EQ with all the QoL features it featured and the 10000x more interactive gameplay for people playing... a game? Yeah, EQ would have been an abortion before it hit the first trimester. For like 99% of the original noows board as well as the neckbeards such as myself from the fohguild.org days.

I just really dislike when people try to paint EQ as this utopia of awesome when it had clear issues that us, the people who played it a shitload, pointed out constantly before real competition ever released. Or the clearly rose-colored nostalgia that thinks EQ"s community was anything special aside from us having been a part of it. It's special -to us- because we were there; it's repeated thousands of times across hundreds of games for millions of other people, but for some reason some people on this forum think EQ was "special" and that the type of community we were involved in has never been repeated. Or that EQ had actual competition when the closest competitor was FFXI and its hilariously bad PC port killed a lot of its audience before it even got started.

Honestly, the only ballsack garglers in this thread are the EQ fanboys who are literally trying to re-write history to fit their shitty narrative. The WoW people at least recognize the faults in WoW; the rose-colored glasses brigade won't hear a single negative word about their seed-dispenser.

Guess what kept my interest longer, the new WoW xpac or (sadly corrupt) EQ emulators

Nirgon said:

Guess what kept my interest longer, the new WoW xpac or (sadly corrupt) EQ emulators

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For me, the WoW expansion by a long shot. What now?

Glad for u is all

Will u do the same for us when we immerse in The Quest again?

Lemme just move around stuck in the kneeling animation cuz I tried to loot a bugged item then raid MC 1200 times

After that every expansion will literally replace my highest tier raid items with things I get by scaring away scary animals near a river

Nirgon said:

Glad for u is all

Will u do the same for us when we immerse in The Quest again?

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I don't give a crap what you play. I only care about shitting all over the rose colored glasses you monkeys are always parading around.

Hard for you to imagine people preferring it yet here they testify

Mashing lesser heal wave, sunder and frost bolt were so much better

Dullahan said:

WoW has become a generational game. It has not kept the same people entangled. It's relied heavily on attracting new players. EQ was different, in that it brought in most of it's players in the early years, and kept them. How many people do any of you know who actually played WoW beyond the first couple expansions, or those that are playing today that have from the beginning? I know only 1.

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I still play and have been playing from day 1 on EU release, which is in early 2005. A bunch of my friends still play (I can count 5, not a hundred). Yeah some are still there from the good old days. There is still a lot of people that started during TBC or WotLK (and there I can count a truckload), but I met also players from Pandaria era and beyond.
WoW aged extremely well, it got a huge graphical overhaul, it changes gameplay for every class (basically) every expansion pack and while the release of new xpacks is a bit too far apart from the previous iteration, there are several content patches that keep players entertained, a pretty good portion of them at the very least.

As much as I played EQ from 1999 to 2004, it's but a fraction of the time I spent in WoW, because all this user friendliness that was opposed by many at the beginning (not a really hardcore game) it payed off in the long term.

I'd be interested in trying a new game that offers an interesting experience, I'm sure of that, I enjoyed a lot FFXIV and GW2 (before HoT, damn what a shitty expansion it was for my taste), but I'm done with those games for several reasons, while I seem to never get tired of WoW.

I bet that Pantheon, if it'll ever see the light in a playable state, won't be as fun, not because of the "challenge" or lack of, but because their gaming model is hard to sustain nowadays. Most people don't even chat anymore, I have a hard time imagining a group losing one or two bored players, halfway through a non instanced dungeon and having to replace them, but having a hard time doing so in a timely manner.

I'm waiting to see the answers to a lot of questions I have, not on a forum, but in game; in a playable, well structured, graphically decent and stable MMO. My guess is I'll have to wait a lot longer.


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Kharzette said:

I don't think anyone would dispute warcraft had more subs. Dulla said eq had better retention. It did.

Blizzard is the two buck chuck, they sell a lot of wine. I'm sure some people think it's great too. It even comes in a nice box instead of those bottles with glass you might cut yourself on.

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WoW was and is a much higher quality product that EQ ever was. Even with all the turmoil during the US launch (instances, loot, etc.) it was better by pretty much every aspect, except one: it wasn' t a chat with dragons, it was an actual game.
EQ was an amazing social network, with a side activity on the top, which I enjoyed massively for years, but never looked back once I stopped.
Sony launched a new EQ instead of updating the old one (which would have been the smarter move) and yet in 2004 they were still way behind in graphics, animations, music and sounds, they didn't offer a seamless world, half their classes were borked piles of uselessness and some things just were ugly design (linked mobs, closed encounters)nonetheless, they still did great things, both in gameplay and in zone designs (Nek castle and Solusek in EQ2 were fucking amazing).

So potentiallyEQ was a great franchise, in reality it became a mediocre and forgotten one.

Hey remember when they released death knights :}

As a major EQ and WoW fanboi I really liked both raids even though EQ's are very basic. Everquest during live was more of a team effort where your subsets of classes had to perform as a group or team versus WoW were its about personal performance.

zzeris said:

EQ was a great experience but a poorly made game. WoW was a fantastically built game that eventually turned into a very boring experience. Neither are what I'd want to waste my time playing in 2011 much less 2017. I'll at least waste some of my time with Convo's baby.

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This line pretty much sums up my feelings perfectly. At this point though, for me at least, I would take a half-baked but experience filled game vs. Yet-Another-well-made-WoW-Clone that is ultimately boring no risk grind that 'Starts at 60~!" and then throws some dance dance revolution into their McDungeons and calls it done enough.

Miele said:

I still play and have been playing from day 1 on EU release, which is in early 2005. A bunch of my friends still play (I can count 5, not a hundred). Yeah some are still there from the good old days. There is still a lot of people that started during TBC or WotLK (and there I can count a truckload), but I met also players from Pandaria era and beyond.
WoW aged extremely well, it got a huge graphical overhaul, it changes gameplay for every class (basically) every expansion pack and while the release of new xpacks is a bit too far apart from the previous iteration, there are several content patches that keep players entertained, a pretty good portion of them at the very least.

As much as I played EQ from 1999 to 2004, it's but a fraction of the time I spent in WoW, because all this user friendliness that was opposed by many at the beginning (not a really hardcore game) it payed off in the long term.

I'd be interested in trying a new game that offers an interesting experience, I'm sure of that, I enjoyed a lot FFXIV and GW2 (before HoT, damn what a shitty expansion it was for my taste), but I'm done with those games for several reasons, while I seem to never get tired of WoW.

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I agree with all of this. WoW made clunky things simpler, ugly things pretty, and was more approachable in general. Biggest improvement was probably combat, particularly for melee. Drawbacks were less resource management -> less planning, and less danger stemming from a weak death penalty that made failure unimportant, and success less rewarding.

Miele said:

I bet that Pantheon, if it'll ever see the light in a playable state, won't be as fun, not because of the "challenge" or lack of, but because their gaming model is hard to sustain nowadays. Most people don't even chat anymore, I have a hard time imagining a group losing one or two bored players, halfway through a non instanced dungeon and having to replace them, but having a hard time doing so in a timely manner.

I'm waiting to see the answers to a lot of questions I have, not on a forum, but in game; in a playable, well structured, graphically decent and stable MMO. My guess is I'll have to wait a lot longer.

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This is where the games differed, and in my personal preference, WoW for the worse. The social aspect was part of the challenge and sort of the original intent of the role playing game itself. Having to interact with people and the uncertainty of where each play session would lead and whether you'd be able to actually win (clear a dungeon, defeat a boss, get a drop etc) was important. It was up to you to maintain your reputation, as well as form relationships with other reliable, skilled players. Much like real life, you could only prepare yourself, but success was not guaranteed. It was those "inconveniences" that made the game less predictable and linear.

In WoW, victory was basically assured. Content was always available. If someone left the party, the game automatically provides replacements. If it was too hard, you change the mode. Everyone is entitled to see and do everything; no more mystery, no more exclusivity. This was less the case early on, but by the end of the first expansion, everyone became a winner. Just buying an expansion also leveled the playing field, trivializing all past achievements. That's a problem.

Miele said:

EDIT:

WoW was and is a much higher quality product that EQ ever was. Even with all the turmoil during the US launch (instances, loot, etc.) it was better by pretty much every aspect, except one: it wasn' t a chat with dragons, it was an actual game.
EQ was an amazing social network, with a side activity on the top, which I enjoyed massively for years, but never looked back once I stopped.

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I agree, what WoW did was high quality, but they left off important mmorpg elements. EQ was heavy on the social side, and by the time WoW rolled around, the flaws in the "game" side became more apparent. The goal therefore with Pantheon should be to balance it out, not be reducing the social aspect, but by bringing the combat and other gameplay up to par.

Miele said:

Sony launched a new EQ instead of updating the old one (which would have been the smarter move) and yet in 2004 they were still way behind in graphics, animations, music and sounds, they didn't offer a seamless world, half their classes were borked piles of uselessness and some things just were ugly design (linked mobs, closed encounters)nonetheless, they still did great things, both in gameplay and in zone designs (Nek castle and Solusek in EQ2 were fucking amazing).

So potentiallyEQ was a great franchise, in reality it became a mediocre and forgotten one.

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Forgotten is an overstatement. There's still a lot of people out there clamoring for a proper successor.

There's always going to be a difference of opinion between players who just want to play an online fantasy game, and those who want to engage in a virtual world with steeper time requirements, more interaction, and a greater sense of achievement. The latter will never rival the numbers of the casual fans who are satisfied with MMO lobby games, but I believe there are more than enough to make a well executed traditional mmorpg successful.