Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

G

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Merlin_sl said:
Oh please. GW2 is closer to Battlefield then Everquest. The entire fight mechanics is build around a spastic, how fast can you run, jump, and click buttons. Its great if your 14 I suppose.
Click to expand...
I think you are overstating GW2s combat and twitchy. It's not nearly as bad as Wildstar, and I can play long stretches with no issues and I'm in my 40s. It actually is far less interactive than EQ2 for me.

EQ2s ability bloat, heroic system, and spam is by far the worst combat system ever created, in my opinion. If they wanted to instantly make EQ2 a much, much better game they could completely scrap it and put EQs system on top of it.

It's a shame Smed doesn't have the balls to completely revamp EQ2. I guess he figures that ship has sailed, and he's probably right. If he had done it in 2006 though the game would be far more popular.
 
G

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
EQ2 is a nightmare with hotkeys but I agree with Amaru, too. A lot of people hate on it, but I actually enjoyed some elements of it (Kunark expansion was a highlight for me). It doesn't help that by the time GW2 launched I'd been exhausted with the genre for years and I don't think an MMO has ever pushed the concept of "fuck grouping" harder than it. Their "everyone gets equal exp for participating in any regard" was a horrible idea.
 
Jimbolini

Jimbolini

Semi-pro Monopoly player
2,567
955
gogojira_sl said:
EQ2 is a nightmare with hotkeys but I agree with Amaru, too. A lot of people hate on it, but I actually enjoyed some elements of it (Kunark expansion was a highlight for me). It doesn't help that by the time GW2 launched I'd been exhausted with the genre for years and I don't think an MMO has ever pushed the concept of "fuck grouping" harder than it. Their "everyone gets equal exp for participating in any regard" was a horrible idea.
Click to expand...
Playing Eq2 since launch I agree about Kunark. (My favorite expac)

Being biased, I enjoy Eq2 combat system...although it can be cluttered at times and confusing. I think the HO system was a good idea in principal, but never really worked well.
 
G

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
gogojira_sl said:
I don't think an MMO has ever pushed the concept of "fuck grouping" harder than it. Their "everyone gets equal exp for participating in any regard" was a horrible idea.
Click to expand...
It's funny you mention that as I was onboard the screw grouping train until I actually played a lot of GW2 and realized how much I enjoyed designated roles and inter-group dependencies. As of now classes with designated jobs and meaning makes an MMO more fun for me.
 
Lethality

Lethality

Lord Nagafen Raider
78
0
Gecko_sl said:
It's funny you mention that as I was onboard the screw grouping train until I actually played a lot of GW2 and realized how much I enjoyed designated roles and inter-group dependencies. As of now classes with designated jobs and meaning makes an MMO more fun for me.
Click to expand...
I think many players realized that, including myself, once they really got into playing GW2. It was more clear than ever that traditional MMORPG combat was it's own thing and it had merits to it, while everyone was trying to dismiss it as "old fashioned."

GW2 should be commended for trying some new things, but if PRotF is "The modern, challenging, group-focused MMO Game" then obviously there's very little from GW2 in the way of group-based class and content design that Brad & team can take inspiration from.
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Pyros_sl said:
In terms of hotkeys and shit, I think I'd like at most 2 full bars of skills for a given class(standard 12 slots bars, so 24abilities per class). Could have more if they're like cosmetics and super situational stuff like self illusions and what not. Then about 1 bar of items/consumables/clickies. I think it wouldn't hurt to restrict the amount of active clickies you can have. Say 3 or 4. You can slot them(so you can still use an item that has a clicky effect without using its clicky if it happens to also have good stats) and no combat swapping. Also buffs from clickies drop if you change the item, don't want to spend 10mins after every death gear swapping shit to buff myself.

24 seems like a solid number to me to have a lot of situational but useful abilities and shit. Half of that would be just that though, either longer cooldowns or situation specific spells, your main abilities should be between 6 and 10. Definitely don't want the limited bar systems, they always say shit like "oh but you can choose what you put on your bar and make builds, such novelty" but it's fucking shit when you play it, you're ultra limited in your "choices" and once a fight starts you're fucked if you didn't get the proper shit which is almost always since you don't want situational abilities on a small bar, you only want the most efficient ability that's usable in most situations. I didn't mind in GW1 because you truly had choice, there were like 120 abilities per class and like 8 or 10 whatever slot plus you could dual class, so you could make real builds, but GW2 is the complete opposite and is boring as fuck. Not as boring as Wildstar, but still boring.
Click to expand...
To me limiting skills is just over-complicating something... let people put 1000000000 abilities on their bars if they want but design encounters around a subset. Either Limit or no Limit my fear of limits comes from games like GW2, neverwinter and stuff when they tell you where to slot certain skills ? Talk about retarded... that is when this shit goes to far.

To be clear even in limited "active abilities" situations, please do not limit WHERE abilities can go... that is just horrible and restrictive nonsense

I think you mentioned a sweet spot there, 24 abilities, 12 combat, 12 buff/other. If you are talking that number now you are basically getting a skill every other level assuming 50 levels... that's a pretty cool amount. I would see that as top end for a healer that does DPS, 6 heal/cures, 6 damage spells, then the other 12 for ( clickies, buffs, anything else you want to hotbar ).

I would imagine melee fighters would be less, likely 6-10 only needed at all.
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
gogojira_sl said:
EQ2 is a nightmare with hotkeys but I agree with Amaru, too. A lot of people hate on it, but I actually enjoyed some elements of it (Kunark expansion was a highlight for me). It doesn't help that by the time GW2 launched I'd been exhausted with the genre for years and I don't think an MMO has ever pushed the concept of "fuck grouping" harder than it. Their "everyone gets equal exp for participating in any regard" was a horrible idea.
Click to expand...
When eq2 was about grouping, on my Fury and assassin through say level 70 i did not have a problem with the number of skills.. I played on pvp server ( fury ) also so it was important to have all your heals, damage spells, CC available.. however, going back to eq2 now and playing mostly solo I don't use 1/2 of what is there ( on my necro ) ..
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Jimbolini_sl said:
Playing Eq2 since launch I agree about Kunark. (My favorite expac)

Being biased, I enjoy Eq2 combat system...although it can be cluttered at times and confusing. I think the HO system was a good idea in principal, but never really worked well.
Click to expand...
HOs were not bad if the encounters required them... I just never needed to use them much for some reason ? perhaps encounters just too easy ?
 
Caliane

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
14,672
10,237
shabushabu_sl said:
To me limiting skills is just over-complicating something... let people put 1000000000 abilities on their bars if they want but design encounters around a subset. Either Limit or no Limit my fear of limits comes from games like GW2, neverwinter and stuff when they tell you where to slot certain skills ? Talk about retarded... that is when this shit goes to far.

To be clear even in limited "active abilities" situations, please do not limit WHERE abilities can go... that is just horrible and restrictive nonsense

I think you mentioned a sweet spot there, 24 abilities, 12 combat, 12 buff/other. If you are talking that number now you are basically getting a skill every other level assuming 50 levels... that's a pretty cool amount. I would see that as top end for a healer that does DPS, 6 heal/cures, 6 damage spells, then the other 12 for ( clickies, buffs, anything else you want to hotbar ).

I would imagine melee fighters would be less, likely 6-10 only needed at all.
Click to expand...
12 is too many imo.

1-4 on keyboard. either alt keys for 1-4. or q,e,r,f.
space jump, v block/dodge, shift run.
2 on mouse 1, and mouse 2.

8-10 skills, +jump/block/run/maybe crouch.

Can't argue with full remapping.

And yes, many options for those 8-10 slots would be nice. (pita to balance though. theres always one or two RIGHT skills, and tons of wrong ones.)
And as many out of combat skills as you want.
 
Flipmode

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Factions that matter. Nothing hard coded. And a class that can cast illusions and their factions with it.
 
mkopec

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
25,448
37,590
I would like to see limited skills like others mentioned. This lends itself to a more balanced game as well. The Secret world stands out as doing so recently and the system worked pretty well. You got to choose a limited amount of skills to place in to your hotbar and this is what you played with until you changed it. This can lead to be a very strategic system of picking and choosing the right skills or spells to use and I assume easier to balance as well. Keep in mind that this is for your core skills. Shit like buffs, clickies, other non-combat skills should not be included in this limited "combat bar".

I hate how bloated these games are getting with combat and magic abilities. A combat system does not have to be overly complex with 30-50 choices of different skills that do the same shit but with varying degrees and slightly different names to be a rewarding and deep combat system.
 
M

Mahulk_sl

shitlord
37
0
Someone mentionned automation systems of FF10/12 and it spawned something in my mind. I wonder if it would work, because that could change the gameplay of support/healer classes. Think of a simple combat system driven by auto-attack(s) (and possibly an auto-heal function for healers) then add an opportunity system layer where different roles gets visual notifications to react to something that happened or that is going to happen.

Exemple:
Warrior auto-attacks, position the spider for the group, then receives a warning that his target is readying a powermove. Warrior trigger his block move and mitigates damage of said powermove, so far, nothing gamebreaking, it's been seen before. Since the tank reacted in time, the powermove was countered and open a backstab opportunity for the rogue, also the move added a poison effect on the tank, healer receives a warning that a party member has been poisonned, his reaction might even determines the final effect of the poison (if not removed before 5 seconds, target is stunned for 10 seconds). Five minutes in the fight, the bard gets a warning that a mana user is running out of mana, he then trigger his mana song.

Basically, use opportunities to notify players that something requires their attention (instead of multiple UI elements) and to engage players in the fight like the rotation of skills was said to do when WoW came in. More engaging combat than EQ is good, but the bloating of skills and UI elements needs to be under control.
 
zzeris

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
19,070
75,580
Mahulk_sl said:
Someone mentionned automation systems of FF10/12 and it spawned something in my mind. I wonder if it would work, because that could change the gameplay of support/healer classes. Think of a simple combat system driven by auto-attack(s) (and possibly an auto-heal function for healers) then add an opportunity system layer where different roles gets visual notifications to react to something that happened or that is going to happen.

Exemple:
Warrior auto-attacks, position the spider for the group, then receives a warning that his target is readying a powermove. Warrior trigger his block move and mitigates damage of said powermove, so far, nothing gamebreaking, it's been seen before. Since the tank reacted in time, the powermove was countered and open a backstab opportunity for the rogue, also the move added a poison effect on the tank, healer receives a warning that a party member has been poisonned, his reaction might even determines the final effect of the poison (if not removed before 5 seconds, target is stunned for 10 seconds). Five minutes in the fight, the bard gets a warning that a mana user is running out of mana, he then trigger his mana song.

Basically, use opportunities to notify players that something requires their attention (instead of multiple UI elements) and to engage players in the fight like the rotation of skills was said to do when WoW came in. More engaging combat than EQ is good, but the bloating of skills and UI elements needs to be under control.
Click to expand...
I don't like the thought of automaton at all and I find it sad that some people don't want to do anything but sit in one spot the whole time. Immersion, yeah right. Your system sounds like a modern attempt at Dragon's Lair from the early 80s. Look on the screen for your prompt, do what prompt says or else. That's even worse than the stupid ring of fire, and prompt colorings during a boss fight. Your system would have people waiting for a prompt to do anything while auto-attack did most of the work. Draegan's thoughts are much better. You have abilities and you choose when to use a certain set or not. Some quick defensive actions if the mob is rearing up. Backstab when YOU figure it's best rather than when the game tells you to. Talk about making games for mouth-breathers.
 
D

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
Quineloe_sl said:
Remove minimap and immersion-breaking floating numbers and I'm in.

I'd rather have a reasonable combat log.
Click to expand...
As stated earlier yes , no gps mini map telling me with my radar and sonar where "danger danger danger" is.

Also related to it , no huge red circles when a mob does an aoe , let me figure the distance to get the hell out of dodge , by, wait for it , WAIT FOR IT ,(I know this is going to be shocking and controversial), by figuring it for myself by guessing/judgement , and holy shit, dying if need be.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
Draegan_sl said:
I've been an advocate for moving as far away from the current world design theory where you have 5x newbie 1-10 zones, 4x newbie 10-20 zones, 3x 20-30 zones, 3x 30-40 zones, and then 2x 40-50 zones and 1x 50 zone. Build a world and then populate it with POIs or areas that are dedicated to certain level ranges, but building a world based on level progression that funnels you into only certain areas is a waste of space in my opinion. I'd like a reason for all players to play in the majority of my world for the duration of their time playing, and not just 2-3 zones.
Click to expand...
I agree with this, build a world, not a Mario World where you have a straight zone progression from world1-1 to world4-4. What I liked about GW2 in this regard is that every zone was at a minimum okay to play in even if you outleveled them, and they still had some mobs or events in some zones that would simply flatten you if you didnt pay attention to avoid them or bring friends (some other things from GW2, not so much).
 
M

Mahulk_sl

shitlord
37
0
I would love to see a game focus less of world size (especially to later have a fast travel that kills the point of having a large world) and extra land with every expansions, to instead have the world evolve with every expansions. Basically, expansions (and patches) change the world without expanding it. Would also allow older players to tell tales about how the world used to be to newer players =P
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
Furious_sl said:
No leashing.
Click to expand...
I want leashing in Pantheon.

Now, that doesnt mean "copy WoW". I want them to take the time when designing mobs to give each a very rudimentary behaviour pattern. Like Diablo 1 did 15 years ago. EQ itself had a bit of this with some mobs fleeing early and some never. Apply this to leashing: if you have a guard, that guy leashes early because it's his job to stand guard and not chase you throughout the whole Karanas. If you have an undead, it's gonna follow you to zone. A predator animal, follows you a fair distance *and* has chase speed faster then you unless you have SoW, no outrunning griffons or lions. I'm sure you can think of some more examples, and you dont need a difficult script for every monster, just some basic patterns that have some differences to add flavor and immersion to the world.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.