Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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ninjarr_sl

shitlord
50
1
Aradune_sl said:
Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!
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Dungeon finders are lazy solutions to hard problems.

If you run around exploring and get to a new area and find nothing to do because there is nobody there, then the community (mechanics) have already failed. No dungeon finder will fix it. Helping players know where to go/be according to where other players are, or where mystery is, is a far better solution. Instead of giving the player a fallback mechanism to cure their boredom, create systems which help players from getting into that predicament to begin with.

If in ignoring those systems the player finds themselves bored: they deserve to be punished with boredom. This is how you train players to use your systems correctly. If you always create fallback systems, the players will embrace their laziness and never contribute to the other systems.

For ideas on how to do this, I would suggest looking at what Valve have been doing with respect to the community of DotA. There, the community is absolute trash, and in a sense that's never going anywhere, its too much a part of the game itself (5v5 pvp). But there are a ton of great ideas to be drawn from. Commendations from other players about your own community behaviour! Extend this to honesty with respect to the LFG flag. Promote proper use of your community systems to help drive players to interact with it properly.

Another interesting idea is to draw from Candy Crush Saga: limit the number of times a player can flag themselves as LFG per day. Maybe you get 3 usages per day, and if you are offline for 30 consecutive minutes, the flag is lost (relogging or disconnecting for a short period of times doesn't eat a flag). Give the tag meaning so players use it properly and you'll have a system players can depend on.
 
arallu

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
536
47
if you must, a LFG button that when clicked just auto-OOC's level ##, <class> looking for a group!.
I liked Vanguard's Healers summons, you had to be in-chunk I think, i.e. relatively close for it to work.
Insta-port anywhere else, other than maybe a city or two (and then maybe only limited to caster's, i.e. wiz guild from city a - b), makes the world feel smaller.
Getting out there and travelling, even as a high level, is where you have your adventures, be it helping out some low level in trouble or just random buff otw to wherever your going.
 
L

Legaeveth

Silver Knight of the Realm
137
26
To clarify what I was saying a little better: So you start off in game as a druid/ Wizard (using EQ classes as an example). At level 1-10 you gain the ability to summon a person to you. Levels 10-20 you gain the ability to self teleport to close areas surround starting areas. Levels 20-30 you gain the ability to teleport yourself and a handful of people with you. Levels 30-40 you gain the ability to teleport to people inside dungeons but only areas everyone in the group has already explored. Levels 40-50 you gain the ability to teleport to spires around the world (self only) then at max level you gain the ability to teleport anywhere you've explored in the world and to dungeon entrances?

A big no imo to dungeon finders.
 
Furious

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,921
4,994
No to dungeon finder.

If anything have a Mage cast call of hero type spell to bring a group member in. Can only be cast 1 time per person per 23 hour timer.
 
BoozeCube

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
<Prior Amod>
48,250
283,287
To much bypassing with teleporting and LFG type features and you end up missing how truly big the world is. How many times in your life have people told you the story of this little adventure here? I bet a ton, in fact you heard boogie and how fond of a memory that was.

Sadly it's a rough trade off, if your intention is small 1 or 2 hour blocks then it makes it very hard to accomplish a vast and scary world to explore. It really comes down to if you want to build another WORLD or if you want to build another GAME. If you want to build another WORLD then you have to limit teleports, mounts, flying, anything that lets you skips vast tracts of land because you detract from it, as does LFG systems, it will always be a game so it will never be 100% immersive but you want to make it as close as possible.

It was easy to get lost in EQ and it was easy to die, I have to say starting out EQ with fresh eyes was a fucking brutal experience, for every person who made it through, I am sure there were 5 others who quit, again as an example from your interview starting a new character in Kelethin and falling to your death never to log in again. I use that example to point out it's a tough call, you could have made the game more convenient little by little and you can see the direct result of going to far by looking to World of Warcraft for an example, the convenience of travel, the convenience of easy grouping, and convenience of porting to a dungeon, instantly finding groups, are all positive in the eyes of some and they may net you a certain type of gamer but I would venture to say the reason the many people who support you do it because they don't want just another convenient MMO or another game to play, they want another WOLRD they want another "Vision"TM

Sadly this comes down to a pretty odd question, what makes more sense financially as a business man, or what makes more sense as a creator and artist, I am going to guess the two questions are a little at odds. As you want as many people to play this game as possible, so making it easier to play splitting it up into bite sized pieces of 1 or 2 hour sections, might bring in the most players, but you will be missing the chance to make something truly great again, and if the game is truly great and inspiring enough it will bring in enough people that you can be proud of what you made.

 
BoozeCube

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
<Prior Amod>
48,250
283,287
Legaeveth_sl said:
Why not do this. These dungeons you are talking about make them early game events and have the later dungeons you can zip around to if need be by players at max level? So as your character grows you as a developing character can teleport further and further. Thus you eliminate people missing content because they just don't have the power/ means to teleport great distances at that point of the game? Oh and only allow teleporting classes this ability I don't like the idea of allowing everyone to do this or more people then need be.
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This might sound counter intuitive but often it's the lower level the noobie experience that benefits the most by zipping around and easy grouping, and basic hand holding, it helps them invest into the game world and grow attached to their characters. It would be interesting to see how many people over the years never made it past the first few levels in EQ before quitting. Usually your higher level players are the most tolerant of the aspects of the game world as they stick around through much more.
 
B

Big Derg_sl

shitlord
126
0
Aradune, any plans to bring in trolls as a playable race?

Will each race have their own unique racial traits?

I ask because I was intrigued with how Everquest started out having an experience penalty for certain races because they had a racial edge, so to speak. Trolls could regenerate health faster than other races, Ogres couldn't be stunned from the front. I always thought more mmo's should embrace racial stat and trait imbalance for the sake of lore and immersion. As an example, I think Ogres should be heartier and stronger, but be disadvantaged by their faction ranking.
 
Z

Zaven_sl

shitlord
43
0
Aradune_sl said:
Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
I don't know how to put this gently but, if you do a dungeon finder system that teleports people to the dungeon, you've lost the whole feel of what you were striving for. I feel so strongly about this, i would cancel my pledge right away if i knew that system was going in. You absolutely can't do it brad! Give a few classes teleports, and let the players have the power. Do not put a lot of instant travel npc's or portals in the game!
 
A

Aradune_sl

shitlord
188
0
Boozecube_sl said:
This might sound counter intuitive but often it's the lower level the noobie experience that benefits the most by zipping around and easy grouping, and basic hand holding, it helps them invest into the game world and grow attached to their characters. It would be interesting to see how many people over the years never made it past the first few levels in EQ before quitting. Usually your higher level players are the most tolerant of the aspects of the game world as they stick around through much more.
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Perhaps we integrate extremely-pro-grouping mechanics like teleporting in the initial tutorial levels only?
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Boozecube_sl said:
This might sound counter intuitive but often it's the lower level the noobie experience that benefits the most by zipping around and easy grouping, and basic hand holding, it helps them invest into the game world and grow attached to their characters. It would be interesting to see how many people over the years never made it past the first few levels in EQ before quitting. Usually your higher level players are the most tolerant of the aspects of the game world as they stick around through much more.
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I would argue the opposite. The harshness of the newbie experience is what led to attachment, to the beginnings of making EverQuest what it was. By dying to those young kodiaks several hundred times in Nektulos & EC (and the halfings, and the lesser mummies, and the poison, and Sgt Slate, and Altunic Jartin, and gryphons, and...), I started to learn a required respect for the world of Norrath.

That's where the foundation was developed. That's where it should be developed. The people that quit EQ early? I'm not concerned with them - and neither should Brad. No hand-holding. The hundreds of other games are for them, not this one.
 
A

Aradune_sl

shitlord
188
0
Zaven_sl said:
I don't know how to put this gently but, if you do a dungeon finder system that teleports people to the dungeon, you've lost the whole feel of what you were striving for. I feel so strongly about this, i would cancel my pledge right away if i knew that system was going in. You absolutely can't do it brad! Give a few classes teleports, and let the players have the power. Do not put a lot of instant travel npc's or portals in the game!
Click to expand...
That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.
 
T

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
Ask just about anybody on a classic EQ forum what the worst thing about PoP was and you will get PoK books as the #1 answer.

I hate teleports. The fewer the better. I would prefer zero of any kind (exceptions perhaps for a fear portal or similar) but of course I won't get what I want in this regard. Teleports are a little like absurdly large structures-- just because it's extremely easy to make them in a virtual world, doesn't mean you should.

I want to play a game where you actually have to think about what you will be bringing along with you on your journeys because you can't make a 5 minute trip back to town to a merchant. A game with a wilderness that is far from civilization and that requires a long and arduous journey both to and from. I want to play a game that requires making time for it because getting your SSoY should take longer than 15 minutes.

Before going into a dangerous dungeon, make sure everybody in your group has enough playtime, or be willing to make the extra effort to, you know, fight your way back to the entrance to replace somebody. Is this a niche game for EQ 1 classic players, or isn't it? A 'dungeon finder' is a complete deal breaker for me as well. If you can't be bothered to make an effort, then there are easy to reach outdoor mobs to kill for worse loot and exp. EQ was fun because it was unforgiving. Fix things like quest NPCs eating items, not the 'terrible' need to fight your way back to get a new group member.

Also, it's important to understand that these design elements are interlocked with others to form a complete game. If you isolate features without considering the whole picture, things like dungeon finder and teleports seem to make sense. Long travel sounds lame until you factor in weather, night blindness, hill giants, druid buffs, trade routes, the shock of seeing an Erudite in Faydwer, etc. Just don't make players have to travel back to town every 2 levels to visit a trainer. (4-5 level spell tiers were a great idea)

One last thing: remember that EQ was unique in that the invisibility effects actually worked and were powerful. It was possible, with caution, to invis around almost all of lguk.
 
N

ninjarr_sl

shitlord
50
1
Aradune_sl said:
That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.
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There's something powerful about inviting other players to a group, or being invited to a group by them, that is immediately lost when you're both placed in a group automatically. There's a sharing of trust at both stages, offering invitation and accepting or rejecting it. Both create an opportunity for one player to communicate with another player. The anonymous game manager pairing players together immediately surpasses this building of trust and players often don't care about each other.

There's a lot more interesting things that could be done than what has been done.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Aradune_sl said:
That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.
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I don't know.. Isn't there a way to promote these things without creating systems? Couldn't you make a central location like the inn or bar, where people go to meet new people? That's something a NPC could inform the playing to early on..

Also, ideally the first dungeon shouldn't be too far from the starter city and could be tied into the intro to the game?
 
DickTrickle

DickTrickle

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
12,924
14,827
Convo_sl said:
I don't know.. Isn't there a way to promote these things without creating systems? Couldn't you make a central location like the inn or bar, where people go to meet new people? That's something a NPC could inform the playing to early on..
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Yeah, because that totally worked in EQ? There were inns. In fact, you used to be able to make posts on the boards in game! That never really took off, though.
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
You have tointeractwith people in order to group with them, not the other way around. For the tutorial, don't let a UI element decide groups. Make a tutorial outside of the game world itself, like you did in EQ.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
DickTrickle_sl said:
Yeah, because that totally worked in EQ? There were inns. In fact, you used to be able to make posts on the boards in game! That never really took off, though.
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That doesn't mean old ideas should not be revisited.. That's what this game is all about.. Create ways for players to meet naturally.
 
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