Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

GuardianX · Oct 22, 2018

Punko said:
I think at least a number of the ships that are being sold are being bought by some of the subsidiaries of CGI.

Nothing pushes a whale like the idea "other people will have better stuff".

I hear what you all are saying, 100% I do. Your reasons are legit reasons to NOT buy into the project.

I also think the reasons are slightly paranoid.

The major assumption I hear is that no one is confirming that it isn't a ponzi scheme (That is the scheme you all are talking about). A ponzi scheme is REALLY easy to detect though. The main reason that people get away with them for a long time is usually lack of exposure and lack of public information.

The development of this game is not lacking exposure (It's basically an industry talking point) it isn't lacking public information (it IS lacking as it pertains public to financials).

Combined, those two things possibly add up to an investigation. While you and I may not have the financial information on Chris Roberts and his shell companies, tax collection and government agencies do.

An audit of this type of thing isn't even remotely hard. Take the CSV's, have a script filter through them looking for transactions between related parties, if you find some and they aren't an immaterial value, dig deeper. Digging deeper is the part where they are informed that they are under investigation and now must submit anything and everything requested OR have a reasonable (legally) explanation for omission.

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As far as I am aware, transactions between related parties in a software development company would raise a few flags (depending on if it is industry standard or not). It isn't even remotely hard to detect either, it's common in manufacturing where you deal with unfinished goods transferring from subs to parent, but I don't know about that line of reasoning when it comes to software development. IF CIG is trying to do this, it may not be industry standard and, if that is the case, they would have a hell of a legal situation on their hands trying to explain why they are deviating from industry standards.

It wouldn't even be the first time someone has done this, so I mean...it COULD be the case...but extremely unlikely since this project has a ton of exposure and a decent amount of people like you all suggesting that fraud / a ponzi is happening.

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I'm not saying that "It's not possible!" it just isn't all that probable. I haven't even taken into account the "Business Partnerships" they have undertaken into this debate because the stance (of fraud / ponzi) becomes a lot less tenable if you add them into the pot.

Businesses like money, 100%. They also like KEEPING their money and getting involved with a Ponzi is pretty much a nail in the coffin to a major business for the sake of competition. This is the case even if your business isn't directly related to the Ponzi. The government HATES ponzi schemes because it throws public trust to the wind and impacts more than just those involved. Historically people involved in ponzi schemes get hit insanely hard in their punishments. I mean, look at Bernie Madoff -- 150 YEARS in prison. Man you could kill a bitch in some states and be out on parole before Bernie.

I know you and I haven't seen the financials but I would sincerely doubt that Intel / Nvidia haven't requested financials before doing business with them in a meaningful way. I really doubt they would connect themselves with something so blatantly in the ponzi territory as someone attempting to game the "transactions between related parties" system.

Take intel, if they got involved in this after requesting financials (Which is pretty much standard for large sum investment (Large as defined by law OR policy)) and it was determined that it was a ponzi after the fact, intel would likely be in the list of defendants. At that point it wouldn't be a small claim against the group, it would be a SEC investigation. During an investigation, you aren't talking a small amount of money, millions have been spent during SEC investigations.

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TL;DR -- Buy or don't buy, I really do not care.

Sure it may seem like I'm talking a lot or swearing a lot to "not care" but I just like talking / typing shit out and messing with people. I care more about shooting the shit with people then whether or not people think positively about CIG.

Punko · Oct 22, 2018

I did not read past the "slightly paranoid" bit.

This game has gathered over 200.000.000$ by now, and what they have can't even be called an alpha.

By their own schedule it won't go live before 2020. It is fair to say their schedules have always been very optimistic. Maybe in 2025?

Faith · Oct 22, 2018

But when it comes to Crytek, its YOUR money they will settle with.....

Regarding the finacials, dont you find it funny that they promised it then keep totaly quiet about it? I mean, if I was still "invested" in this shit I would be livid to see just what the fuck they have been up to?

Again, waste your cash on what ever you fancy, but there has to be a reason you let this slide...

Faith · Oct 22, 2018

GuardianX said:
The major assumption I hear is that no one is confirming that it isn't a ponzi scheme (That is the scheme you all are talking about). A ponzi scheme is REALLY easy to detect though. The main reason that people get away with them for a long time is usually lack of exposure and lack of public information.

Madoff was audited several times, what whats that you were saying?

GuardianX · Oct 22, 2018

Faith said:
But when it comes to Crytek, its YOUR money they will settle with.....

And?

Apple settled with Samsung and "Used my money" to do so as well because I bought iProducts a decade ago. I am not a fan of apple at all since the OG iPhone, should I be upset about how they used the 1.5 thousand I paid them back then that was used for non-dev costs?

That argument is weak, a better argument would be to argue that funds can only be used for direct dev costs (like you did for the CitizenCon funds) and then mention something like, money also bought CIG some guys commuter card, or a "Get well" card for someone the team wanted to appreciate that was out sick, a pizza day for staff, a staff raffle, a birthday cake, or anything else that is benign and non-work related that is typical for any office around the world.

in regards to the actual suit:

A judge has mostly denied Star Citizen studio’s motion to dismiss the Crytek copyright lawsuit | Massively Overpowered

one of the comments kinda points it out from a less biased point of view.. but it's a long ass read especially if you don't care:

CRYTEK could request the Judge place an injunction against CIG to prevent them from:
– Continuing to accept any further Pledges toward/Sales of merchandise related to Star Citizen and SQ42
– Continuing ANY FURTHER development on SC or SQ42 development
Until the full case is adjudicated, or the parties reach a settlement.

That said, given the way the Judge ruled on the Motion To Dismiss, I doubt she would grant either (unless CRYTEK does do an amended Pleading that corrects what she saw as deficient arguments in parts of CRYTEK’s initial pleading that she ruled on. (Of course if they do, CIG would be able to file another MTD against that amended pleading.)
IF the contract situation was such that CIG entered into a contract and never paid CRYTEK one cent of what was agreed on, the Judge might grant either two requests (were CRYTEK to make them) – but all evidence points to CRYTEK having received the agreed upon amount ($2.5 million) – and what’s left are CTRYTEK’s claims of ‘public source code exposure in CIG videos’; the belief that somehow CIG negotiated in ‘bad faith/unfairly’ because one of the persons involved on CIG’s side was a former CRYTEK employee (although CIG has stated CRYTEK was fully aware of this before negotiations were entered and they have a written Waiver from CRYTEK); CRYTEK saying “Squadron 42 was never part of the original licensing agreement” (even though in the Contract snippets that have been released, SQ42 does in fact appeared to be mentioned separately and included); and lastly, that CIG violated copyright agreements by NOT displaying CRYTEK logos while they were still using CRYTEK’s engine for development of SC.
CIG’s claim of defense is that they stopped using CRYENGINE fpor development and now have a contract with AMAZON to use LUMBEDRYARD (and yes, LUMBERYARD is a fork of CRYENGINE, but legally CRYTEK sold it to AMAZON, so legally LUMBERYARD is a different engine); and that they didn’t remove CRYTEK’s logos until they started using LUMBERYARD for continued development. That’s one major crux of CRYTEK’s case, that CIG removed the logos BEFORE the LUMBERYARD switch.<— And this is what they want a trial (with evidence from both sides) and a Judge or Jury to decide.

The Judge also stated CRYTEK was NOT entitled to punitive damages based on their initial pleading; but they could if they wished file an amended pleading, and she might reconsider.
Bottom line: CRYTEK probablty doesn't want to actually prevent CIG from continuing to take in funds, or stop development because what they hope to get is either:
– Rights to include and sell/license the CIG CRYTEK engine upgrades as a part of a game engine CRYTEK could still claim as theirs.
– As much money as they cane from this case – either in court awarded damages (should CRYTEK prevail and be able to prove monetary damages were incurred by them); or in a settlement directly with CIG (which would likely remain private between the two parties and the amount and terms would not be disclosed publicly.)

So yeah, if CRYTEK forces CIG to fold, the amount of money they would realistically see from either favorable (to CRYTEK) result would be diminished – and in the end, CRYTEK probably wants money.
But as others have said, in the end, the longer this drags out – the only winners are the lawyers (who get their legal fees no matter what happens.)

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Faith said:
Madoff was audited several times, what whats that you were saying?

114 years...

Not served because he is an informant now.

So you can not feel bad for him:

Swain accepted the plea terms, but suggested that Friehling be forced to pay part of the overall $130 million forfeiture arising from the fraud. Swain said that she did not believe Friehling's nonfeasance took place "in a vacuum", and felt the forfeiture was necessary to hold the defendants to account even though it will likely never be repaid in full.

now so you can feel bad for the guy:

In November 2012, Friehling's 23-year-old son Jeremy Friehling, a second-year student at the Ohio State University College of Medicine, committed suicide.

Pulled from the wiki of course.

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I mean your insinuations could be right, we could have the new wave ponzi scheme on our hands regarding crowd-funded things!

KPMG has been hit hard for a while on the ethics point and Kegkilla works for them, that's a two-fer. They are pretty much teetering on a financial scandal lately with all the shit going on regarding them and their offices.

Grim1 · Oct 25, 2018

hmm. my embed skills suck. link below. best use of star citizen yet, music vids.

Citizen Bowie

Faith · Oct 29, 2018

GuardianX said:
And? .

That there ends the debate. If you are fine with them doing whatever with the money you gave them, its fine. We have diffrent opinions, thats all.

GuardianX · Oct 29, 2018

Faith said:
If you are fine with them doing whatever with the money you gave them, its fine. We have diffrent opinions, thats all.

It isn't that I "Am Fine" nor agree with whatever they choose to spend money on but I feel that you all are holding this company to a standard that no other company meets.

You can't "Line Item" your purchase for ANY company, so why would CIG / SC be any different?

I mean, if I could line item things for ALL companies, I would omit expenditures of ANY PvP development for any game I play (mainly to piss off PvPers...lawl...then the double down would hit and they would omit PvE...sad times).

But we can't.

I still stand on my stance that, while CIG / SC isn't an amazing company by current standards and known issues, people are pointing to things that they wouldn't even blink at within other dev studios and referencing those issues as "Monumental" or other hyperbolic language.

Ultimately it is as you say it is:

Faith said:
We have diffrent opinions, thats all.

While I don't agree with ALL of the stances and arguments you all make, I think you do make some very significant points on why a person should stay away from making this a "Buy" at this point.

If it was on my plate today, I'd likely not buy into it beyond something small, essentially "Pre-ordering" the game for a cheaper than release price(50 USD max).

popsicledeath · Oct 29, 2018

GuardianX said:
Apple settled with Samsung and "Used my money" to do so as well because I bought iProducts a decade ago. I am not a fan of apple at all since the OG iPhone, should I be upset about how they used the 1.5 thousand I paid them back then that was used for non-dev costs?

Umm, yeah, but didn't you like... get an iPhone when you bought an iPhone? So why would you be upset? You paid for a product, then got the product? That's how it normally works.

I think we'd all agree the situation of buying and receiving a product wouldn't be comparable to, say, buying the promise of an iPhone and then spending more for specialty cases that you'll be able to use on your phone in 5+ years if they ever actually deliver a product instead of just continuing to develop the OS and re-design the iPhone over and over for years on end offering more specialty accessories the whole time until they eventually they at least let you go into an Apple store and hold an alpha version of the iPhone for a few minutes as then try to sell you more specialty items and it was so awesome to hold the iPhone you might some day get to actually use you try to call your friends to tell them about it but, well, your phone is still in development.

etchazz · Oct 29, 2018

GuardianX said:
You aren't wrong. It's certainly not the BEST use of money but neither is eating fast food, getting coffee, paying for various in-game currencies / appearance items.

Either way I spent what I wanted to spend on something I found interesting.

If I bought 400 dollars of weed, smoked that 1 ounce in a single day of bong / vape infused glory, came here and started talking about it in a thread titled, "Weed I smoked - the search for more weed money continues" none of you salty motherfuckers would have half as much to say about it as you do, "Star Citizen and the search for more jaded space sim whales".

Bitch, who you buying your weed off of that's charging you $400 an ounce? No wonder you're getting taken by this company. Your dealer is robbing you blind. I pay $250/$275 an ounce, and that's for the best shit on the planet.

Folanlron · Oct 30, 2018

GuardianX said:
I hear what you all are saying, 100% I do. Your reasons are legit reasons to NOT buy into the project.

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As far as I am aware, transactions between related parties in a software development company would raise a few flags (depending on if it is industry standard or not). It isn't even remotely hard to detect either, it's common in manufacturing where you deal with unfinished goods transferring from subs to parent, but I don't know about that line of reasoning when it comes to software development. IF CIG is trying to do this, it may not be industry standard and, if that is the case, they would have a hell of a legal situation on their hands trying to explain why they are deviating from industry standards.

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On this 1 point, this does happen in the industry(alot) usually though it's not public information, companies that do this have all possible associated dev's sign NDA's(before the project even starts)... 99% of the time all of this is hashed out before even a code tree is started... CIG is a special kind of dev, so much money..

Nightmare · Oct 30, 2018

These are the major features that keep me coming back to this game. The ships are cool and all but I think these features will be the real pull to this game after it's all said and done.

Object Container Streaming
At its core, Object Container Streaming allows Star Citizen to create our Universe. We will no longer be restrained by the physical memory on your PC and will be able to stream in new environments, locations and ships seamlessly as you approach. This will also be one of the biggest wins for increased performance as your graphics memory will no longer be overloaded. This work requires that a handful of other Object Container Streaming prerequisites be completed.

Asynchronous Background Spawning
Foundational work for object container streaming, reworking various game systems to trigger more entity spawns in the background, relieving spawning pressure on the main thread and leading to fewer stalls.

Network Bind Culling
This work aims to help improve performance in multiplayer by cutting down the number of entities that exist on clients. Entities too far from a player will be removed from the local client, and when the player moves or the server otherwise detects new entities entering the player's range they will be added to the client. Because clients will then only consider updating entities that are near to them the overall CPU load will be reduced and performance should improve.

64-Bit Float Positioning

Denaut · Oct 30, 2018

Nightmare said:
These are the major features that keep me coming back to this game. The ships are cool and all but I think these features will be the real pull to this game after it's all said and done.

Object Container Streaming
At its core, Object Container Streaming allows Star Citizen to create our Universe. We will no longer be restrained by the physical memory on your PC and will be able to stream in new environments, locations and ships seamlessly as you approach. This will also be one of the biggest wins for increased performance as your graphics memory will no longer be overloaded. This work requires that a handful of other Object Container Streaming prerequisites be completed.

Asynchronous Background Spawning
Foundational work for object container streaming, reworking various game systems to trigger more entity spawns in the background, relieving spawning pressure on the main thread and leading to fewer stalls.

Network Bind Culling
This work aims to help improve performance in multiplayer by cutting down the number of entities that exist on clients. Entities too far from a player will be removed from the local client, and when the player moves or the server otherwise detects new entities entering the player's range they will be added to the client. Because clients will then only consider updating entities that are near to them the overall CPU load will be reduced and performance should improve.

64-Bit Float Positioning

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Those are things every major game and engine already does, and has done for decades.

Nightmare · Oct 30, 2018

Yeah but like.. They built it from the ground up right? Doesn't that make it a whole new thing? For example, When you delete the asset loading features of CryEngine and rebuild them you get to change the name to StarEngine. That's kinda like I stayed at your house then while you were at work I threw away your TV and replaced it with my own. It's my house now right?

Denaut · Oct 30, 2018

But why are those "major features that keep me coming back to this game." Those aren't game features, they are basic how the low level technical shit works requirements. Do you buy every game made in Unreal because the engine does such a good job with asset loading, LoDing, and culling and it keeps you coming back?

Same reasoning.

Nightmare · Oct 30, 2018

Why yes, I do buy every game that rewords asset loading and makes it sound pretty. Also, culling is an awesome word, that makes it worth it all on it's own.

Denaut · Oct 30, 2018

Nightmare said:
Why yes, I do buy every game that rewords asset loading and makes it sound pretty. Also, culling is an awesome word, that makes it worth it all on it's own.

Damn it, you got me

Aaron · Nov 1, 2018

By the time this game is released 64bit engines will be a thing of the past with everyone playing 128 bit engine games!

Fucker · Nov 1, 2018

Denaut said:
Do you buy every game made in Unreal because the engine does such a good job with asset loading, LoDing, and culling and it keeps you coming back?

Woffer · Nov 8, 2018

About to hit $200 million...

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