Transgender Facts vs. Fictions
- Thread starter Vanessa
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Bandwagon
Kolohe
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Since I was the one that stated I think the grown up forum would have been a better place for this thread if you wanted less trolling in it, I guess it's about time to clarify how I envisioned this going down. This is my opinion, by the way, not a reading of the forum rules or a consensus fromAye, thank you Bandwagon. None. Point of that question is to show that even with the lopsided disagreements in this thread (essentially me vs. the rest of the thread), disagreement itself doesn't bother me. Were I the oversensitive, triggered tranny that many of you have painted me to be, I'd have a lot to REPORT for off topic, non-sequitur, personal insults in this particular section of the forum. But nope. Not my intent to ruffle feathers. Just wanted a mature dialogue. I'd still be willing to have a literal debate about all of this via a podcast-esque type of setting. You guys can get your best and brightest to come "destroy" me... LoL, it'd be funny I think, but I've offered that before.... no one would bite
Well, I thought this would have turned out better (I'm serious LoL), but I think all of us can see that there will never be a tranny thread in the grown up section discussing tranny shit. I'm okay with this ultimately... it was an attempt, it didn't work (so many saw that coming though), and now it's just shaw-fodder. Lesson learned; not going down that road again.
Just one last question for all of you before this is tossed down the garbage chute: If I'm so wrong with this, and you guys are so right, then why is the world outside this place (In the practicing medical field, court system [yes I had a Judge approve my gender change many years ago], and federal government [SSA]) on my side?
Just some food for thought! Cya guys in some other threads; let's shitpost away!
Amod
following some reports.First off, I view the title of this thread as inflammatory bait. Maybe that was intentional, maybe it wasn't, but that's the way it comes across. It sounds patronizing and a little revisionist. It's your decision, but that seems like a really bad way to try to start this thing off on a fresh foot.
I don't think that I was clear in explaining my opinion on how moderation should take place in this thread. It definitely wasn't supposed to be active enforcement or "babysitting" the thread with us steering posts into an honest discussion, and I don't think that would work very well considering the posts made here from those people anyways. The point I was trying to make was that when a post is REPORTED in this thread, the fact that this thread resides in the grown up forum would carry weight when the amod team is arguing/discussing/debating how to respond to the report. The fact that you seem to be proud of the whole "zero reports from me in this thread" statistic confounds me because that's your primary means to keep this thread on track. Yes, this could potentially go too far and be more than the mods' patience can handle, but I still think that is the right way to handle this. I don't like taking action unless I see a report, or notice an egregious action that violates the forum rules. I was relying on you ping a post when you feel it steps over the line of what you consider reasonable discourse in this thread, and then the rest of the mod team gets to discuss it from there.
I've actually thought a lot about this thread, especially because I've spent over 20 hours driving in the last 6 days and listened to some podcasts that were focusing on censorship, discourse and free speech. On one hand, I strongly feel that a thread like this can/should exist on this forum and in this subforum and that we can enforce good-faith debate in it (again, by way of reports....not babysitting). On the other hand, this topic is a lightning rod for strong opinions that have been repeated ad nauseam for years now, and I'm not optimistic that you're going to see reasonable discussion on it at this time. Maybe that's because of this community specifically, maybe it's because of you, or maybe it's just because everyone's life is saturated with the topic right now and you're the easiest person to lash out at. I don't really know.
Tl;dr
Option 1: Start over (again) and do some work to keep your own thread on-topic by way of reports. We don't have a problem thread banning people from your thread in the grown up forum if needed, but you need to report them and give a reason to start the process. (Other mods have pointed out that the thread would essentially be empty if we removed all of the troll posts & insults, as an observation).
Option 2: Recognize that you're working against fatigue regarding current events, pop culture and your own personal reputation as a one-topic poster here. Give the topic a rest, engage in others, ignore the trolls instead of responding with walls of text, and try again in the future. People's minds are pretty much made up at this point. If you want to re-start the discussion with a blank slate, I'm becoming more convinced that it's not possible unless you give the topic some time out of the spotlight first.
edit: Again, this is all my own opinion about the topic and what I think is our responsibility as mods, of which I am the only one that hasn't served before.
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Vanessa
Uncle Tanya
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Bandwagon; legit... thanks for taking the time to type out all of that. I really DO appreciate it.
Option 2 is what I choose. I agree that there is oversaturation (let's be real: the GG/SJW thread is one tranny post after the other and it has nothing to do with me) and I 1,000% agree that people's minds are pretty much made up at this point.
Maybe once something really big and newsworthy comes down the line in a few years, we can revisit this topic.
This speaks more than I really ever could on the topic. Thank you.
Option 2 is what I choose. I agree that there is oversaturation (let's be real: the GG/SJW thread is one tranny post after the other and it has nothing to do with me) and I 1,000% agree that people's minds are pretty much made up at this point.
Maybe once something really big and newsworthy comes down the line in a few years, we can revisit this topic.
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Phazael
Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
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He derailed his own thread by going straight to puberty blockers. He is not interested in a serious adult discussion, he just wants to refight a point he got crushed on with Mod help this time around. No introspection, no new topics, no genuine debate with sources; it is just him spouting Jerle level tranny propaganda on repeat and Picarding anyone who pokes holes in his delusion. He had a fresh start. Yet, this is where we ended up because he chose to route it directly in the most thoroughly debunked soapbox issues that he couldn't let go the last time out. If you were really serious you would have started over with discussions about growing up with his mental illness and how he coped and do's and don'ts for other people experiencing the same thing. But no, we are right back to him wanting to inject stuff into other people's kids deserve his delusion which is why this was doomed to begin with. Even chaos sees this and he's the guy who built the fence that tuco sits on.....
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chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
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I don't want to be like that, I want to be open and considerate. But the kid this frustrates me, and the way it is discussed frustrates me. I think there are some good discussions to be had surrounding trans people, mental health, what constitutes advocacy, trans rights, treatment, long term views of these issues, etc. But when we start the goddamn conversation off with drugging kids as a baseline...
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Oblio
Utah
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This is made up bullshit, just like the bullshit about Gender being a Social Construct. If you disagree with me, then rub two dicks together and get back to me when you make a baby. Does what it means to be a Man or a Woman change over time socially, based on social norms and advancements in technology (Hi2U Tampon)? Of course it ebbs and flows, but until some real big changes come down the evolution pipe then it takes a Man (Biological Male) and a Woman (Biological Female) to make a baby. There are only Two Genders but there are Two Billion Kinks/Sexual Preferences, probably more. I have no issue with what adults do in their bedrooms as long as every adult is a willing participant and no kids are involved.
Any Parent, even the shitty ones, can tell you that their kid is often persistent, insistent, consistent on or about many different subjects/matters. That doesn't mean the kid understands repercussions, ramifications, consequences.
I guess if my kid is really persistent, insistent, consistent I should just give in, right? No matter what it is, right? Never mind the knowledge I have, never mind that it is my job to guide my child's decisions until he is mature enough, responsible enough, thoughtful enough to make those decisions on his own.
What if my kid identifies as a Bird? Should I support him jumping off the roof in an attempt to fly?
For the record, I have zero issue with Bob wanting to be Barbara or vice versa as long as Bob is an adult, it does not affect my life. I will call Bob by Barbara if she prefers, I will do my best to use she/her properly. However, I will not say any made up pronouns.
I have genuine empathy for people that believe they were born into the wrong body, I honestly do. Life is hard enough being straight, I can't imagine the added bullshit that comes with being Gay or Lesbian, let alone having Body Dysmorphic Disorder.
Also, this from the Mayo Clinic...
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Lanx
<Prior Amod>
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it speaks volumes when you can't even wrangle up support from the girls on the forum, bitches really do hate each other.
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Kiroy
Marine Biologist
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Punko
Macho Ma'am
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If you feel this thread is inappropriate, then I would encourage you, and every other member to report it, you may do this as often and as frequently as you like.
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OK, this may be futile, but I'm going to do my best to salvage this thread. ALL of amod has been involved with this issue at some point including myself, so even the appearance of impartiality is impossible regarding this subject. In that light, I'm taking the responsibility for attempting to salvage this thread personally. I will be moving all posts I don't feel belong here to the shaw AMA thread, and any further posts that I feel don't meet the standards of the grownup forum will be moved and people may face infractions for going over the line.
If you feel you can't abide these terms regarding this subject then you're free to avoid this thread or post in the shaw.
Some guidelines here:
-Stay on topic.
-No personal attacks.
-Keep it civil.
-Keep your anecdotal evidence out of here.
-Moral arguments are fine alongside the "scientific" ones.
If you see posts violating these guidelines, report them. The report feature isn't the "Complain" button, you're genuinely helping us out assuming the report isn't frivolous.
If after my attempt to salvage this thread proves ineffective, we'll go from there.
If you feel you can't abide these terms regarding this subject then you're free to avoid this thread or post in the shaw.
Some guidelines here:
-Stay on topic.
-No personal attacks.
-Keep it civil.
-Keep your anecdotal evidence out of here.
-Moral arguments are fine alongside the "scientific" ones.
If you see posts violating these guidelines, report them. The report feature isn't the "Complain" button, you're genuinely helping us out assuming the report isn't frivolous.
If after my attempt to salvage this thread proves ineffective, we'll go from there.
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Punko
Macho Ma'am
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Asmadai
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Punko
Macho Ma'am
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Let's see what actual experts have to say about the subject. For some reason I feel that these Doctors (Who don't suffer from mental illness) lend a little more credibility to the topic at hand.
Gender Ideology Harms Children
Updated September 2017 The American College of Pediatricians urges healthcare professionals, educators and legislators to reject all policies that condition children to accept as normal a life of …www.acpeds.org
The American College of Pediatricians urges healthcare professionals, educators and legislators to reject all policies that condition children to accept as normal a life of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex. Facts – not ideology – determine reality.
1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of male and female, respectively – not genetic markers of a disorder. The norm for human design is to be conceived either male or female. Human sexuality is binary by design with the obvious purpose being the reproduction and flourishing of our species. This principle is self-evident. The exceedingly rare disorders of sex development (DSDs), including but not limited to testicular feminization and congenital adrenal hyperplasia, are all medically identifiable deviations from the sexual binary norm, and are rightly recognized as disorders of human design. Individuals with DSDs (also referred to as “intersex”) do not constitute a third sex.1
2. No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one. No one is born with an awareness of themselves as male or female; this awareness develops over time and, like all developmental processes, may be derailed by a child’s subjective perceptions, relationships, and adverse experiences from infancy forward. People who identify as “feeling like the opposite sex” or “somewhere in between” do not comprise a third sex. They remain biological men or biological women.2,3,4
3. A person’s belief that he or she is something they are not is, at best, a sign of confused thinking. When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such. These children suffer from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria (GD), formerly listed as Gender Identity Disorder (GID), is a recognized mental disorder in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5).5 The psychodynamic and social learning theories of GD/GID have never been disproved.2,4,5
4. Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous. Reversible or not, puberty- blocking hormones induce a state of disease – the absence of puberty – and inhibit growth and fertility in a previously biologically healthy child.6
5. According to the DSM-5, as many as 98% of gender confused boys and 88% of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty.5
6. Pre-pubertal children diagnosed with gender dysphoria may be given puberty blockers as young as eleven, and will require cross-sex hormones in later adolescence to continue impersonating the opposite sex. These children will never be able to conceive any genetically related children even via artificial reproductive technology. In addition, cross-sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen) are associated with dangerous health risks including but not limited to cardiac disease, high blood pressure, blood clots, stroke, diabetes, and cancer.7,8,9,10,11
7. Rates of suicide are nearly twenty times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBTQ – affirming countries.12 What compassionate and reasonable person would condemn young children to this fate knowing that after puberty as many as 88% of girls and 98% of boys will eventually accept reality and achieve a state of mental and physical health?
8. Conditioning children into believing a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse. Endorsing gender discordance as normal via public education and legal policies will confuse children and parents, leading more children to present to “gender clinics” where they will be given puberty-blocking drugs. This, in turn, virtually ensures they will “choose” a lifetime of carcinogenic and otherwise toxic cross-sex hormones, and likely consider unnecessary surgical mutilation of their healthy body parts as young adults.
Michelle A. Cretella, M.D.
President of the American College of Pediatricians
Quentin Van Meter, M.D.
Vice President of the American College of Pediatricians
Pediatric Endocrinologist
Paul McHugh, M.D.
University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins Medical School and the former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital
This was the most recent good post made on the topic, from a scientific point of view.
Since noone has bothered to argue it, it seems safe to accept it.
Maybe sticky the post in a separate thread.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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The issue I don't understand is, if gender is a social construct, why do trans people feel the need to modify their bodies?
Why not modify the construct to better represent how they feel.
Instead, it seems people going through transitions do so based on stereotypes of how a male or female is supposed to feel, or act or look.
But these stereotypes are malleable, unlike physiology. It seems to me, as a casual outside observer, that one of the issues is that trans people have accepted social stereotypes about what a man or woman is and determined that they need to be this other thing to feel better. Maybe rejection of the stereotypes that belief is based on is an easier solution?
A campaign to accept men and women who do not conform to any percieved stereotype would be an easier sell than convincing people that biology is based on belief.
As for pushing these concepts of biological fluidity onto children, that's going to bite everyone involved in the ass real hard.
I dunno, whole thing is turning into a huge mess and does not seem concerned with positive outcomes for the people actually transitioning, over simply conforming to a position for the sake of gaining social credits.
But what do I know...
Why not modify the construct to better represent how they feel.
Instead, it seems people going through transitions do so based on stereotypes of how a male or female is supposed to feel, or act or look.
But these stereotypes are malleable, unlike physiology. It seems to me, as a casual outside observer, that one of the issues is that trans people have accepted social stereotypes about what a man or woman is and determined that they need to be this other thing to feel better. Maybe rejection of the stereotypes that belief is based on is an easier solution?
A campaign to accept men and women who do not conform to any percieved stereotype would be an easier sell than convincing people that biology is based on belief.
As for pushing these concepts of biological fluidity onto children, that's going to bite everyone involved in the ass real hard.
I dunno, whole thing is turning into a huge mess and does not seem concerned with positive outcomes for the people actually transitioning, over simply conforming to a position for the sake of gaining social credits.
But what do I know...
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moonarchia
The Scientific Shitlord
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