NBA 2016-17 Season Thread - Knicks in 6

Jozu

Jozu

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Is it a dumb argument.

But you have to draw the line somewhere and be able to objectively observe a single play and attach value to it WHILE ALSO being able to keep it in context.

What you said is true, all the plays matter. But thats like saying all the strokes mattered as much as the money shot in a porn, it's just not true. Kyries 3 at the end of the game was not only the most valuable play of the game, but the entire series.

Your talking about a penultimate moment that was a RESULT of all prior plays, not just from that game but the entire series.

My point is, yes you can absolutely point to one play and have that play stick in your mind and let it define that particular championship.

If LeBron hit that shot we would of never even fucking mentioned Kyrie. But he had the balls to pull up and take the low percentage shot JUST to be able to have the chance at becoming an icon and decider.

You also have to remember that either team COULDN'T score for MINUTES up to that point, so it's not like he just hoisted the shot up for fucks sake, he literally broke the deadlock and an immense amount of pent up anxiety due to the gravity of the situation.
 
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zzeris

zzeris

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DickTrickle said:
My argument is far more rational than yours. Your last line about makiig this about "Bron apologists" betrays your sophist nature. This isn't about Lebron or Kyrie but just a rational way of understanding. If Tristan Thompson doesn't make a dunk in the second quarter, or Kevin Love misses free throws in the third, or a thousand other things, Kyrie's three doesn't matter. All the plays before mattered for Kyrie's to matter.

Lebron needed Kyrie. Kyrie needed Lebron. In fact, they needed Thompson, Smith, and Love and some others too most likely, because they were above average level replacement play. I just don't understand how you boil a comparison of player value down to exactly one play and think that means anything. Was Curry a liability for the Warriors because he missed the last shot? Even Lebron at least hit one of the two free throws which allowed them to only have to defend the three point line instead of the entire half court. Do you not see how stupid it is to evaluate player worth based on a single play?

You want to say Kyrie was the better player that series? Sure, make that argument. I think it's not true because he was, at best, an average defender in that series (he did give effort), but that's at least a rational case to be made. It actually evaluates an entire body of work instead of one possession.

Did Michael Jordan need Steve Kerr or John Paxson? Was Robert Horry the most important piece of his championship clubs? Did they decide the series and Jordan was a second thought? Basketball may be more of an individual sport than something like football or soccer (baseball you could argue because of pitchers), but it's still a team. Even in an individual competition, like tennis, it's not like one single play decided the game. Every play before the final play mattered. It's such a simplistic mindset to only see the last thing as the only thing.

Did Kyrie make what was probably the most clutch shot? I can see that argument, but one play still did not solely decide the outcome of the series, which is what I said in the beginning. If you really think that, then that must mean you think all the other plays didn't matter, hence my suggestion of a single possession game. Obviously that was a retarded argument to highlight how retarded your argument is.
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Of course it was sophistry. It was deliberately used to set off Bron fans. Your real argument is obviously true but rarely used today. People focus on Lebron when it took a team for their very fortunate finals win. It was close as hell and took a lot of moving pieces to accomplish. Just like every team game (even this one where higher abilities have greater overall results). You could have made our argument look stupid without bringing in another retarded argument as your foundation is all I was saying. Well, and rubbing shit in Gaige's face as much as possible.

TL;DR- Bro, you better than me. Stop that shit.
 
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DickTrickle

DickTrickle

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It's an important and iconic shot for the Cavs, wouldn't dispute that in the least. And Kyrie had a huge game six before that, too.

I just feel there's always too much talk about any one specific play when it comes to sports and it bothers me.

I also think when it comes to polarizing figures (Lebron, Kobe, whoever else), it's also such extremes. If Lebron was 2-19 for that game but hit the three Gaige would talk all day about how it was an amazing performance and how he overcame and willed his way to victory. Haters would talk about what a lucky shot it was and how horrible Lebron played and how the team had to overcome his shitty play.

But, I guess that's the nature of sports arguments.
 
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Merrith

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DickTrickle said:
It's an important and iconic shot for the Cavs, wouldn't dispute that in the least. And Kyrie had a huge game six before that, too.

I just feel there's always too much talk about any one specific play when it comes to sports and it bothers me.

I also think when it comes to polarizing figures (Lebron, Kobe, whoever else), it's also such extremes. If Lebron was 2-19 for that game but hit the three Gaige would talk all day about how it was an amazing performance and how he overcame and willed his way to victory. Haters would talk about what a lucky shot it was and how horrible Lebron played and how the team had to overcome his shitty play.

But, I guess that's the nature of sports arguments.
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Kobe had a very similar "poor" Game 7 shooting wise that Bill Simmons and others love to dog him for despite them winning the game, and Kobe making a clutch pull up and free throws to finally give Lakers some breathing room.

Obviously, you'll get a variety of opinions on that performance. Lakers/Kobe fans will say he overcame adversity to come up big in the clutch, haters will say he played poorly and didn't deserve MVP.

The truth in the middle is he, like almost everyone else that game, had a tough night overall, but made some big shots down the stretch. As for all the rest in this thread, it's mostly to troll Gaige, although I think most of his arguments for Lebron's greatest are all pretty shaky, especially when he tries to compare him to Jordan. Lebron should be appreciated for what he is, but not given too much credit for what he isn't.
 
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Pigbenis

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Derrick Rose is gonna look really weird in a Cavs jersey

Edit:

Great product NBA

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DickTrickle

DickTrickle

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He's not what he was, but washed up trash is a bit far. 18 PPG on 47% shooting. I think picking him up was overall a pretty good addition. His three point shot isn't very reliable and that's a pretty huge knock in this day and age but he actually got back to driving to the hoop last year.

In terms of value (he signed a $2.1M contract), it's one of the best pickups possible, even though he's not close to MVP Rose. He would be large improvement over anyone on their bench and could be a sixth man candidate.
 
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Jozu

Jozu

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How the fuck is Rose trash? He signed the veterans minimum by choice. He could of got more money elsewhere. This shows some maturity at least, as he is putting ultimate success above all else.

As a player, he is only 28 and if he can stay healthy (obviously a huge if) he could score 21 points a game and average 4 rbs and 7 assists, no problem. Best case hes a 26 pt 8 assists type player and actually plays a major role as a starter.

This is a great move for the Cavs.
 
Sterling

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Yeah, he might not be the explosive MVP player he used to be, but it's a real low risk move, I don't see the issue.
 
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1987

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Is there an example of a decent player who has played with Lebrun at one point, wanting to resign on a team with him on it.

Basically, does everyone who plays with him never want to again?
 
Springbok

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I think maybe DWade would have, just for another shot at a ring but I largely agree.... and I actually like Lebron. I do believe the Stephen A stuff yesterday about Lebron wanting to beat Kyrie's ass was true and I think he purposefully let that leak. Hope Kyrie can get the F out of Cleveland, he was and is too good to be playing elite basketball in that shit stain city
 
ham

ham

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1987 said:
Is there an example of a decent player who has played with Lebrun at one point, wanting to resign on a team with him on it.

Basically, does everyone who plays with him never want to again?
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What a stupid post. Is there an example outside of Kyrie?
 
ham

ham

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you dont think the hometown + 47 million dollars was more of the deciding factor there?

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Ambiturner

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I don't think it's anti-Lebron so much as he just needs to be the alpha and that's not happening with LeBron.
 
Pigbenis

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I think Lebron is a nightmare teammate. He makes everyone remember a handshake that he does with only them. He constantly calls people out on the court. If they win it's because of him regardless of anybody else's input. Sure he'll get you to the finals but how much can you take.
 
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