Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous

Shmoopy

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Depends on difficulty and what you've got in the party to buff with. Heavy armor does get the shaft something fierce though, it really should come with innate DR or something like that.

If you are not the 'slowly creep up in stealth til you see mobs then spend 5 minutes buffing, save then attack' type, I suppose heavy armor saves you a lot of micromanagement.

Even without buffs the Dex tanks are better. At around level 14 I had a pair Fighter heavy armor tank mercs. I made a pair of Scaled Fist Monks with the 1 Sorc, 1 Witch, and they are like 15+ AC higher without any excessive buffs.

Keep in mind: (1) heavy armor is plenty viable for Normal difficulty and (2) at lower levels heavy armor is good before the OP no armor feats start kicking in.
 

Kirun

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Natural armor classes are always a lot like casters in the early game - really rough and hard to stay alive, but if you can make it out of that, you get reeeeeeal busted later on.
 
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Void

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Wow. I had no idea you could actually fail the choice to become Legend at level 8. I'm pretty sure I know why I failed it now, and I was mainly just going to try it to see what it was like and then reload to pick my real one, but I guess that's not gonna happen! Also, thanks fuckfaces for not allowing me a convenient save point immediately prior to that choice, and instead having to go through a ton of cutscene bullshit before and after the choice just to choose and then see my character sheet.

I considered going Gold Dragon (which worked), but man, losing all those teamwork feats and superpowers from Azata would be rough. I wish they let you keep your 1-7 and then just added some Gold Dragon goodness on top. My main character would certainly be a powerhouse, but the other characters would drop a lot in effectiveness without those team feats. That lifelong friends thing is fucking insane too.

I can almost see the attraction to blasting through the story again on easy mode to pick other paths or maybe even go for the secret ending, but that's still a fuckload of time commitment.
 
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Xequecal

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Even without buffs the Dex tanks are better. At around level 14 I had a pair Fighter heavy armor tank mercs. I made a pair of Scaled Fist Monks with the 1 Sorc, 1 Witch, and they are like 15+ AC higher without any excessive buffs.

Keep in mind: (1) heavy armor is plenty viable for Normal difficulty and (2) at lower levels heavy armor is good before the OP no armor feats start kicking in.
You can do heavy armor on armor training classes. Fighter 7/Hellknight 8 gives +5 to DEX bonus, so you can get +8 from mithril full plate, and you have levels left over to get witch for +3 and alchemist for mutagen.

Really fun trick to make a full plate tank good early on: In Drezen, when Yaniel opens the secret door to the banner room with the floor puzzle, you can kite the shadow mobs that spawn in there up to Yaniel. She'll attack them and get slaughtered, and you can loot lots of high level items including a +5 adamantium full plate off her corpse.
 
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Chanur

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Seems like Regill spends most of the fights trying to intimidate. Is there some way to change that? He seems kind of useless which is a shame for an interesting NPC.
 
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Genjiro

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Owlcat: when in doubt on how to design encounters just make everything take a 19-20 to hit. Just fought some named demon at level 7 that had +41 to hit and 30 ac. Combat in this game is the most uninteresting shit in the world, and this is only on Core. I guess this is their brilliant design answer to their brilliant design decision to let players multiclass and get a billion AC which forces you to also make these stupid melee (shes a witch!) characters.

Dont even try to make a mounted character without micromanaging every tiny little thing or the AI just breaks. Fucking terrible game that could be fun if you could just convert it to a different tabletop system that isnt completely bonkers broken.
 
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Nirgon

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The mobs im fighting are lvl 15 and I'm fresh 11. Gets nasty.

I scanned some of these fuckers and they had out flank. Good thing for ice prison.
 

Kirun

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Seems like Regill spends most of the fights trying to intimidate. Is there some way to change that? He seems kind of useless which is a shame for an interesting NPC.
Ewwww. Play turn-based or at least RTWP, the AI is garbage with most of their choices on what to use.
Owlcat: when in doubt on how to design encounters just make everything take a 19-20 to hit. Just fought some named demon at level 7 that had +41 to hit and 30 ac. Combat in this game is the most uninteresting shit in the world, and this is only on Core. I guess this is their brilliant design answer to their brilliant design decision to let players multiclass and get a billion AC which forces you to also make these stupid melee (shes a witch!) characters.

Dont even try to make a mounted character without micromanaging every tiny little thing or the AI just breaks. Fucking terrible game that could be fun if you could just convert it to a different tabletop system that isnt completely bonkers broken.
Wants to approach most encounters as a tank and spank, pissed that the combat isn't "interesting" - can't explain that.

I stayed away from mounts because I figured it'd be bugged and I heard horror stories from the beta/early release. The Skald build I had worked out for Seelah wasn't really working like I had hoped, so I swapped her to a mounted Paladin and I'm not really sure of the complaints with mounted combat - she's a total beast mounted up and a slow ass, 10 speed turd when not. Unless people are referring to charge, in which case charge is buggy as shit and has been the entire time, even after the "fixes".
 
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Genjiro

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Ewwww. Play turn-based or at least RTWP, the AI is garbage with most of their choices on what to use.

Wants to approach most encounters as a tank and spank, pissed that the combat isn't "interesting" - can't explain that.

I stayed away from mounts because I figured it'd be bugged and I heard horror stories from the beta/early release. The Skald build I had worked out for Seelah wasn't really working like I had hoped, so I swapped her to a mounted Paladin and I'm not really sure of the complaints with mounted combat - she's a total beast mounted up and a slow ass, 10 speed turd when not. Unless people are referring to charge, in which case charge is buggy as shit and has been the entire time, even after the "fixes".

Yes, approaching fights with a tank as a tank class like Seeleh (ie the characters they give you) that are not viable without multiple reloads because they are shit and unoptimized tanks without dips in witch/vivisect/monk/blahblahblah = great game design.

Or lets get really crazy and just require failed saves at low levels by casting Grease literally everywhere. That's also good design.

And idk if they fixed them but tons of shit was straight broken like the Inquisitor judge class features didnt work AT ALL at launch. But this is Owlcat and this is what they do
 
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j00t

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to be fair, a good chunk of those complaints aren't owlcat. they are paizo. owlcat is just using paizo's pathfinder rules. i really like pathfinder's setting but i REALLY don't like how focused on min/maxing the rules are. it's designed from the ground up by and for min/maxer's and autists. the rest of us normies have to play on crayon eater difficulty just to hit a target.
 
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goishen

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to be fair, a good chunk of those complaints aren't owlcat. they are paizo. owlcat is just using paizo's pathfinder rules. i really like pathfinder's setting but i REALLY don't like how focused on min/maxing the rules are. it's designed from the ground up by and for min/maxer's and autists. the rest of us normies have to play on crayon eater difficulty just to hit a target.


This made me laugh more than it should've.
 
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Urlithani

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to be fair, a good chunk of those complaints aren't owlcat. they are paizo. owlcat is just using paizo's pathfinder rules. i really like pathfinder's setting but i REALLY don't like how focused on min/maxing the rules are. it's designed from the ground up by and for min/maxer's and autists. the rest of us normies have to play on crayon eater difficulty just to hit a target.
Normal difficulty is even 2 steps lower than Core.

To me it's a combination of flaws in the original game rules and in the game engine trying to emulate those rules. Instead of fixing it, they're just rolling with it and building on top of it. The first thing is they let all sorts of bonuses stack that shouldn't stack (e.g. Magic Vestment enhancement bonus stacks with the enhancement bonus of magic armor because the armor's enhancement bonus is rolled into the AC), which means you can get ridiculous builds.

Then they try to shore up underperforming classes (like straight monk) with overpowered items (here's a robe that only monks can wear that gives you the equivalent of wearing splint mail armor!) Unfortunately with use magic device and class dips, a bunch of other classes can use this stuff, further spiraling out of control.

The last thing is the limitations of the game engine and an unwillingness or inability to implement AI that can be smarter. Two examples include mobs will just stand in stuff like cloudkill, or they will run headlong into pits, grease, spike stones, etc. The second example is every enemy caster has a simple gimmick and never utilizes spells beyond a basic script (usually evocation spells, sometimes confusion or phantasmal putrefaction).

Did you know in PF1 a Glabrezu casts spell like abilities as a 14th level caster, and can cast Chaos Hammer, Unholy Blight, and Dispel Magic at will? My players HATED Glabrezus in PnP because they would sit in the back behind the vrocks, etc. And just dispel buffs and spam unholy blight. You start facing them at around level 10, so if they used dispel magic, theres a 70% chance they would remove a buff on each casting. Mirror image, displacement, blur, stoneskin, death ward, freedom of movement, etc.? Yeah say goodbye to some of that when Dispel Magic is spammed. Hope you have at least one heavy armor tank, chief. In Wrath Glabrezus are just bruisers that cast mirror image before they move into melee.

You could also limit resting by upping the stealth requirements to hide a party of 6 in a demon infested wasteland
(no you cant just set up camp in the middle of a dungeon that's not cleared and never get encounters because someone has a whopping +9 to stealth).

But this stuff is harder to fix. It's easier making bigger numbers on the bad guys.
 
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Armadon

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Most high ac mobs have low touch attack ac. I think the problem is if you don't play table top pathfinder this game is brutal. If you do play you know what do and plan accordingly so it's easy. I think it's hard to find a middle ground in this game.
 
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Void

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Most high ac mobs have low touch attack ac. I think the problem is if you don't play table top pathfinder this game is brutal. If you do play you know what do and plan accordingly so it's easy. I think it's hard to find a middle ground in this game.
It does also tell you to use touch attacks and the like about 4000 times on random loading screens.
 
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Qhue

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This all shows why WOTC was smart to leave 3.5 behind. Such synergies are fundamentally broken as they should ostensibly be forbidden by any rational DM as incompatible with the story but in many cases are not.
 

Kirun

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Yes, approaching fights with a tank as a tank class like Seeleh (ie the characters they give you) that are not viable without multiple reloads because they are shit and unoptimized tanks without dips in witch/vivisect/monk/blahblahblah = great game design.

Or lets get really crazy and just require failed saves at low levels by casting Grease literally everywhere. That's also good design.

And idk if they fixed them but tons of shit was straight broken like the Inquisitor judge class features didnt work AT ALL at launch. But this is Owlcat and this is what they do
Your problem is that you're approaching this game like an MMO. "Tanks" aren't really a thing in PnP systems, unless your GM allows you to "house rule" shit involving intimidate, bluff, charisma, etc. "Tanking" in PnP terms has always been more about positioning and "control" effects. That's why reach weapons are really valuable on a tank, because it allows you to "threaten" more area, thereby "forcing" people to stay in your general area or pay the price for leaving it. Plus, you have combat maneuvers like trip, pin, bull rush, etc. to help with all the positioning stuff.

Obviously, this stuff doesn't always directly translate in a 3D-game world with systems and programming tacked on top of it. Either way, this is what Pathfinder, D&D, etc. have always been. I'm not saying you have to like those systems, but to expect a game based on PnP to NOT play like PnP is kinda...wtf?. These games have always thrown out encounters that are "outside" the norm, which causes you to rethink your typical "tank n spank" tactics - that's why complaining that the combat system sucks is confusing to me. Those are precisely the encounters that makes these games interesting. This game is usually a snoozefest from a combat perspective, UNTIL you get those interesting encounters that cause you to reload 3-4 times. Something that has insane AC and/or BAB is going to be weak in some other area. Low reflex save, low fort saves, low will saves - exploit those.

Inquisitors were buggy as fuck in Kingmaker, there was ZERO chance I was touching them in Wrath. I think Owlcat needs to just forget trying to implement them, because it's obvious they can't get it right.
 
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Burns

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Your problem is that you're approaching this game like an MMO. "Tanks" aren't really a thing in PnP systems, unless your GM allows you to "house rule" shit involving intimidate, bluff, charisma, etc. "Tanking" in PnP terms has always been more about positioning and "control" effects. That's why reach weapons are really valuable on a tank, because it allows you to "threaten" more area, thereby "forcing" people to stay in your general area or pay the price for leaving it. Plus, you have combat maneuvers like trip, pin, bull rush, etc. to help with all the positioning stuff.

Obviously, this stuff doesn't always directly translate in a 3D-game world with systems and programming tacked on top of it. Either way, this is what Pathfinder, D&D, etc. have always been. I'm not saying you have to like those systems, but to expect a game based on PnP to NOT play like PnP is kinda...wtf?. These games have always thrown out encounters that are "outside" the norm, which causes you to rethink your typical "tank n spank" tactics - that's why complaining that the combat system sucks is confusing to me. Those are precisely the encounters that makes these games interesting. This game is usually a snoozefest from a combat perspective, UNTIL you get those interesting encounters that cause you to reload 3-4 times. Something that has insane AC and/or BAB is going to be weak in some other area. Low reflex save, low fort saves, low will saves - exploit those.

Inquisitors were buggy as fuck in Kingmaker, there was ZERO chance I was touching them in Wrath. I think Owlcat needs to just forget trying to implement them, because it's obvious they can't get it right.

Divine Beast Hunter is now the best Inquisitor.

A 3 dip into it, on a pet class, gives shared teamwork with pet, and a +1 to attack rolls for the hunter and pet (Justice Judgement)(in Kingmaker, most pet builds would 3 dip inquisitor for the teamwork).
 
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Chanur

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This all shows why WOTC was smart to leave 3.5 behind. Such synergies are fundamentally broken as they should ostensibly be forbidden by any rational DM as incompatible with the story but in many cases are not.
They are bringing 5.5 now. So i wonder if they are about to embrace the cruchy again.
 
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Witless

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There are no perfect set of rules. You release one version for the role players and then the next version for the min maxers. Everyone in between house rules to their own taste.
 
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