NBA 2015 Playoffs Thread
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popsicledeath
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I'm gonna let you finish, but Lebron had the best stats of the series! Lebron lost it, Warrirors didn't win it. Just look at the stats! Lebron is MVP and the championship is actually his because he lost so spectacularly that if the warriors had any respect they'd forfeit the championship!
DickTrickle
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Still waiting on anything to back up the idea that Kobe is clutch. I used to think that until I saw the numbers and I don't know how else you could measure it if not by numbers. If you don't believe in any quantifiable way to measure it or that all the numbers from that link don't matter then, yeah, I guess it is all about feels.
You can point out Lebron played against a weaker conference for many of those playoff games but that still doesn't mean Kobe's numbers aren't pretty poor. I'm sure there's some way to quantify that, as well, but that's just another number and not a feeling.
I don't even dislike Kobe. He was probably my favorite player when I was younger and I really liked his later Lakers squads (though more for Pau and Bynum at that point). You can make the argument that he's somehow more of a team builder than Lebron (though I'm not sure I buy that) because that's basically entirely subjective. But it's hard to ignore that he had a tendency to hero ball it without the results to back up that mentality.
Ambiturner
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DickTrickle
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Bynum was a really good center, offensively and defensively, for about 4-5 years. Do you disagree with that? Don't just remember his silly antics toward the end. They don't win those championships without him, imo.
Gilgamel
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Lies. It was Kobe and a similar supporting cast to the ones Lebron has drug to the finals every non-Miami year. Kobe's just better in the clutch so he won with those teams sometimes!
Ambiturner
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He was a good center when the NBA lacked any good centers so he looked alot better by comparison. He was also wildly inconsistent and they still win in '09 without him
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Bynum/Gasol were solid players, but I honestly believe the Lakers benefited from playing a Magic team in the finals that were not that great, and from a referee onslaught in Game 7 of the '10 Finals. Now obviously, I'd rather have those two guys than not, but I think even Kobe benefited from some good circumstances (which all champions do).
To touch on your "clutch statistics", you can even get deeper with those analytics. I'd be really curious to see how many of those points/shots/whatever come from garbage time points where LeBron's team is being blown-out deep in the game etc... The stats aren't all that surprising, generally "clutch" is a by product of winning. Basketball is extremely situational, those surveys of some of basketball's best minds unanimously taking Kobe in the clutch speak to how situational the sport is.
To touch on your "clutch statistics", you can even get deeper with those analytics. I'd be really curious to see how many of those points/shots/whatever come from garbage time points where LeBron's team is being blown-out deep in the game etc... The stats aren't all that surprising, generally "clutch" is a by product of winning. Basketball is extremely situational, those surveys of some of basketball's best minds unanimously taking Kobe in the clutch speak to how situational the sport is.
DickTrickle
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The first section was shots to tie or take a lead so no garbage time situations.
I don't know how they could take Thompson at 15/year over Love. At the very least they could flip a long-term contract Love for a better player than Thompson if they don't feel it's working out.
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After looking at Bynum's game logs/per game stats in the '10 title run, aside from a 21 pt & 7 BLK game in a losing effort, his post season stats are surprisingly underwhelming. Thought he did a little more than this. Averaged 7.4 points & 5.1 reb in the Celtics series.
Andrew Bynum Game By Game Stats and Performance - ESPN
Andrew Bynum Game By Game Stats and Performance - ESPN
popsicledeath
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Kobe is 5-1 in game 7's, the only loss being the Suns series that was lol-worthy he even carried that team to a game 7.
Lebron is 3-2, which isn't bad, but his only wins on the stacked Heat teams that somehow got pushed to 3 game 7's in 2 years.
Would Kobe have won his only loss with another Hall of Famer in Wade and solid All-Star like Bosh on the team? Instead of Lamar Odom, umm, Kwame Brown... well, there was Smush Parker.... Shit, it's hard to even find other players on the roster worth mentioning.
Would Lebron have ever won a game 7 without Wade and Bosh? At this point, we'll never know, because Lebron never has.
Of course, people forget how shitty many Kobe teams were, and how relatively weak even his second batch of championship teams were. Why? Because he was winning! We say, yeah, but he had good teams, obviously, because they were winning teams.
Of course, Lebron is given a pass for his Cavs teams being 'terrible' because, well, he was losing. He didn't win, so obviously the other players on his team weren't very good and were all losers, right, otherwise they would be winning!
That's why given the exact same roster, same coach, same management, same everyone except my pick between Lebron or Kobe to lean the team, I pick Kobe every time. Because Kobe is a winner, and Lebron is a loser.
Of course, I have no doubt Lebron would have the better stats in that scenario... and still lose more, and his teammates have worse stats, play worse, with worse attitudes and worse effort and worse desire to win.
And I have no doubt even in losing Lebron would tell a press conference he's the player in the world, and Kobe would laugh because he'd know he just beat the so-called best player in the world yet again.
popsicledeath
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Andrew Bynum was shit. Shit stats. Shit effort. Shit attitude. Which is part of the reason Kobe used to skewer him and helped push his ass out of the organization.
Hell, even Pau was pretty soft. He'd at least respond when Kobe rode his ass, though.
And I'm sorry that even if the deflection of any criticism of Lebron we have to talk about how other players are winners as Lebron has found himself losing once again.
popsicledeath
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Sucks that Lebron benefits more than any player I've ever seen, and is still a perennial loser when he doesn't have his Hall of Fame and All-Star buddies helping him win as a hired gun in Miami.
Lebron in press conference saying he'd rather not make the playoffs at all than lose in the finals. Even baited into a response by a dumb question, could anyone imagine MJ or Kobe or Magic or Bird or ANY respectable championship caliber player ever saying they were the best in the world, then lose the finals at home, and THEN say it hurts losing so they'd rather not make the playoffs than lose in the finals?!
popsicledeath
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I'd like to see some statistics on Finals game 7's for MJ and how many times MJ admitted he'd have rather not made the playoffs than be subjected to another losing effort.
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Blitz_sl said:
popsicledeath_sl said:
Thanks for calling me a retard though!Commander Vimesh_sl said:
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Listen pops, I'm totally fine with just settling on a agree to disagree for your opinions on LeBron. The Kobe discussion was simply a tangent that has come up a lot based around the idea of him being "clutch" which you can see you aren't the only one that holds that opinion of him. I think the stats say Kobe has just taken a ton of clutch time shots, not that he has made them at any sort of amazing clip.
I care about stats and only stats because ultimately it's my opinion that talent trumps everything. I don't care about a player's attitude or desire or a draft prospects NCAA tournament performance or workout scouting. Basketball analytics are by no means perfect but they go a long way to allow you realize things about players you might not see and I'll trust that over any random person's eye test.
You need a top player to win a championship and you have to surround that player with a deep team. Kobe had that for all 5 of his championships (3 to a much larger degree than the last 2 admittedly). LeBron had that in Miami. He hasn't on any of his Cavs teams. I'll give him a ton of flack for his performance against the Mavs in Maimi which you might as well call a choke job. I do not feel the same about the loss to the Spurs, where he played amazing but hit a juggernaut of a playoff team.
Ultimately it's a difference of opinion. It's fine if you think Bron is a loser because he lacks the qualities of a champion or whatever. I'm still going to think that logic is pretty flawed as it isn't something that can be quantified at all (and the end result, because it can't be quantified is you just thinking you're absolute in your opinion in the face of evidence otherwise). I think basketball is a team game and championships are won on talent and in the rare situation that a winning team can be explained in some other manner, well, I just think those are outliers.
Edit: I don't even like LeBron. I was very happy to watch him lose. I can just acknowledge how good he is.
I care about stats and only stats because ultimately it's my opinion that talent trumps everything. I don't care about a player's attitude or desire or a draft prospects NCAA tournament performance or workout scouting. Basketball analytics are by no means perfect but they go a long way to allow you realize things about players you might not see and I'll trust that over any random person's eye test.
You need a top player to win a championship and you have to surround that player with a deep team. Kobe had that for all 5 of his championships (3 to a much larger degree than the last 2 admittedly). LeBron had that in Miami. He hasn't on any of his Cavs teams. I'll give him a ton of flack for his performance against the Mavs in Maimi which you might as well call a choke job. I do not feel the same about the loss to the Spurs, where he played amazing but hit a juggernaut of a playoff team.
Ultimately it's a difference of opinion. It's fine if you think Bron is a loser because he lacks the qualities of a champion or whatever. I'm still going to think that logic is pretty flawed as it isn't something that can be quantified at all (and the end result, because it can't be quantified is you just thinking you're absolute in your opinion in the face of evidence otherwise). I think basketball is a team game and championships are won on talent and in the rare situation that a winning team can be explained in some other manner, well, I just think those are outliers.
Edit: I don't even like LeBron. I was very happy to watch him lose. I can just acknowledge how good he is.