I guess it sorta make sense though, people can come to the correct logical conclusion using faulty reasoning sometimes.
North Korea
- Thread starter Araxen
- Start date
I was genuinely curious if Gavinrad had something interesting to post about NK, guess he just can't step out of the angry forum guy personality for a minute and make a regular post.
(or he had nothing to contribute but wanted to sound smart)
(or he had nothing to contribute but wanted to sound smart)
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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12/12/12 Never forget gavinrad got called out on his bullshit and tucked tail
Cybsled
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It's not surprising China+Russia aren't happy with it, since randomly shooting stuff into orbit runs the risk of damaging THEIR satellites or astronauts if they happen to be up there. The "secret space plane" was definitely launched to pwn/capture the NK satellite though haha
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Nah, I've discussed my views about Best Korea before over on FoH. A big part of what is wrong with North Korea is the fact that nobody helped them rebuild after the Korean War (China's fault, not ours), but it doesn't help that they've been getting buttfucked by economic sanctions for decades (Our fault). I imagine that if we started treating them like an adult, it would encourage them to start acting like one.
Dashel
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Korea is like every other nation we dont get along with. Obama came in and just rebooted the same progression every other president did. Start withsustained, direct, and aggressive diplomacy, then when that doesnt work we go to sanctions and progress up to talking about how we'll sanction the fuck out of them. Maybe appeal to the UN (lol), and perhaps even rattle a few sabres by vague military threats or leaked plans on how we'd bunker buster this or that site.
Doesnt change anything.
Unless they think some sort of air strike would do something the only real options are do nothing, or missile defense!
Doesnt change anything.
Unless they think some sort of air strike would do something the only real options are do nothing, or missile defense!
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NM I saw that banned under your name and I thought they started banning people.
Eomer
Trakanon Raider
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What would be the benefit of antagonizing NK, Russia, China, and possibly others? What upside is there? What is gained by attempting to shoot it down? That is crossing a line that no country in history has crossed, in shooting down another country's satellite launch. What kind of precedent does that set?
As far as fighter jets "combating" each other, real life isn't Top Gun. Fighter engagements are done at 50-100 miles with missiles these days. Outside of training, why would two nations' fighter jets approach to close range and mock dog fight each other? That's just asking for an international incident. And for the record, Russia has resumed their Bear bomber flights over the Arctic circle, with Canada and the US scrambling fighters to intercept and the Bears turning back before crossing any boundaries.
You're such a little pussy.Gavinrad_sl said:
SK has a much bigger impact on NK behavior than we do. Things were progressing very well and there was very little hostility until Lee Myung Bak was elected. He is the George W of SK and basically single-handedly ruined any build up of diplomacy. During his presidency is when the Cheonan was sunk, NK tested a nuke, and the island in the west was shelled.Korea is like every other nation we dont get along with. Obama came in and just rebooted the same progression every other president did. Start withsustained, direct, and aggressive diplomacy, then when that doesnt work we go to sanctions and progress up to talking about how we'll sanction the fuck out of them. Maybe appeal to the UN (lol), and perhaps even rattle a few sabres by vague military threats or leaked plans on how we'd bunker buster this or that site.
Doesnt change anything.
Unless they think some sort of air strike would do something the only real options are do nothing, or missile defense!
I do kind of find it funny that we get all up in arms when NK launches a satellite. Yea it's a "cover for developing weapons tech" etc etc, but what gives us, or any other country, the right to say "we'll do whatever we want, but you better not do the same."
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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I agree with this a lot, but the 'right' is given by the global organization body (UN) voting to put sanctions on a country. Whether you call that a right or not is another debate.
Fuse
Silver Knight of the Realm
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Ethically, I'm not sure we have a right other than that we do not trust the leadership of NK with long range nukes, out of self interest. Whether that is right or wrong is debatable.
This, however, gives us a de facto right
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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iannis
Musty Nester
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Dashel is right honestly. The only way to stop this is to blow shit up and kill people. Nothing else works. The question is not do we have a right to do that, the question is Eomer's -- is it worth it to do that? My answer (and apparently the unspoken but understood answer of the American military) is "not yet". That's different than not ever. It's not about sovereign rights. It's not even about what is right. You can't defend or attack what's happening in North Korea through either of those avenues because if you tried it would lead us into war even more quickly.
It's about regional stability, global power, and american interests. Superpower ain't just words they say on the nightly news.
It's about regional stability, global power, and american interests. Superpower ain't just words they say on the nightly news.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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I agree. The question is whether sanctions force your views on a sovereign country, or simply cut them off from the group of people imposing the sanction.
I think it depends on the context. Sanctioning as a punishment for aggression, like shelling SK or sinking the Cheonan, is fundamentally different from sanctioning for developing rocket technology. One is aggression, the other is technology that can be used as aggression. It's punishing shooting someone versus acquiring a gun. I don't know the correct answer for "should we let NK pursue military technologies" from a pragmatic point of view, but ethically, what we are doing is nothing more than bullying.
The problem with these "this country is dangerous, we have to do whatever we can to stop them" attitudes is that they seem to me to be precisely what causes war a majority of the time. It caused Vietnam*, it caused Iraq 2003, it would have caused the destruction of our planet during the Cuban Missile Crisis (while no military action led to eventual peace), it will likely cause the destruction of the entire middle east if Israel pursues that mentality with Iran.
On the other hand, what wars were caused by letting a country build up? Germany in WWII (and WWI? I don't know enough about that one)... is there any other?
It is this bullying "you aren't allowed to pursue what we already have" attitude that seems to cause most of the hostilities in the first place.
*our fear of communism spreading in a runaway manner
The problem with these "this country is dangerous, we have to do whatever we can to stop them" attitudes is that they seem to me to be precisely what causes war a majority of the time. It caused Vietnam*, it caused Iraq 2003, it would have caused the destruction of our planet during the Cuban Missile Crisis (while no military action led to eventual peace), it will likely cause the destruction of the entire middle east if Israel pursues that mentality with Iran.
On the other hand, what wars were caused by letting a country build up? Germany in WWII (and WWI? I don't know enough about that one)... is there any other?
It is this bullying "you aren't allowed to pursue what we already have" attitude that seems to cause most of the hostilities in the first place.
*our fear of communism spreading in a runaway manner
Sanctions seem more like, if you want to develop nukes and test your rockets, that is fine, but we are no longer going to give you aid, buy anything from you or sell anything to you. I just don't see how that is bullying.